So what happens when the kids parents divorce, row every day, become alchoholicsor druggies, or even one dies.

It’s a tragedy. In the case of divorce we should be aspiring for it not to happen, but it does happen and in those cases it’s a tragedy. In the case of one parent dying, that’s even more of a tragedy.

But none of that is the same as saying that the state is going to sponsor the situation as something that is OK.

Sadly gay bullying is still there from both sides it appears.

This is precisely what I mean by ‘sexual politics’ – this is turning an argument that isn’t there to suit a political view based on sexuality.

I believe, like TrailMonkey, that children need both a mother and a father.

But you’re wrong. It may be preferable in some cases but it isn’t a need. And in many cases it’s preferable that the mother and father are not together.

For you to say that divorce is a tragedy is odd, and completely at odds with my experience.

C_G
mother of 2 adult children brought up in the ‘traditional’ way

Nuff said

without offending anyone for a change is this not a case of “I want” and money talks

Presumably the complainees were just as prompt in raising these objections when Ms Ciccione and Mrs Pitt went shopping for babies and can qoute the threads wherein they did this?

If not, why not? How is this one different? Ah-Haaa….

I wasn’t going to comment here because, frankly, I have more interest in China’s rice export figures for 1984 than I do in some celebrity and their partner adopting an anklebiter.

However, I’m somewhat surprised at some on the opinions being expressed here, I thought I’d inadvertently scanned into the Daily Mail forum for a moment. So.

Let’s look at this.

They’re two blokes, so no mother. This is a straw man – they’ll have an entourage looking after the kid day-to-day, nannies and the like, there’ll be no shortage of mother figures. Plenty of kids grow up well-adjusted whilst being brought up by single parents.

He’s old. Well, ok, but a lot of people are – maybe he’ll pop his clogs when he’s 80; the kid will be 20 by then, and will want for nothing.

They bucked the system. Bone of contention maybe, but whilst he didn’t meet the Ukranian criteria a couple of years ago (or the British – did they try here too?) he clearly met the US ones. So what are we really saying here, the US adoption system isn’t strict enough? That’s not really a criticism you can lay on the couple though.

He’s got a history of addiction. Fine, but he’s clean now isn’t he? Are we judging people on their past rather than their present now?

Are they fit parents? Who knows. I know little about Elton John or Mypartnerdavidfurnish beyond the facade presented in the media. What I do know though is that plenty of scumbags reproduce every day, without any screening process whatsoever. The adoption system is bursting with kids who have been removed from unfit parents. Is our outrage misplaced perhaps?

Finally, they’re gay. Care more?

But you’re wrong.

My experience of life is that they do. Your experience of life is likely to be different and you may have reached a different conclusion.

I can accept your conclusion is different to mine. But to say either is wrong is arrogant and ignorant.

Greatest gift of all ? I’ve got four kids but I had some lovely pants given to me at Christmas , mmm

Emsz it does look a little like you’re playing sexual politics here. None of the remarks are neccessarily homophobic but it does look like you’re trying to push that as an agenda.

Geetee some people on this thread have used the word despicable when describing a family without a mother or father, seeing as it is impossible for a gay couple of either sex to provide that they must therefore think gay families are despicable as well. A quick google reveals Rod Stewart (old singer) to be father at 60+ and Bob Geldof a single father at 59 adopting his ex wife’s (died of drug overdose, shall we discuss lifestyle choices of gay people now?) child. No one mentions them at all.

This thread has been a thinly disguised “oh look at the Gay men buying a baby” From the start

Has anyone yet explained their reason(s) for believing it necessary for a child to have a mother and a father?

Is such a belief just that, a belief, or is there some proper, studied evidence to support such a position?

The couple are free to do what view they have done

Well in some countries they are – like the USA. But they wouldn’t be in the UK which is where Elton has his “main residence”.

A child wants love,

for the parent to show intrest in what they do,

to help them with emotional issues,

to teach and support their socialisation in life,
to give them money until they have the means to earn their own money,

to bandage their cuts when they have a fall.

any sort of parent can do this, some choose not to,some dont see the importance of doing so,

Doesnt matter who the paerent sleeps with, its the above and more that counts,as the child has litle concept of sexuality until a lot latter in life.

To answer the above post

a father provides the seed hopefully in a loving courtship

A mother bears the child

Father and Mother then 9 months later become parents to there own offspring

simples

unless we are talking about a consumerism where anything is available with enough money

but still what do I know I bought a dog

What gives the ‘singletrack police’ the right to decide what can/cannot occur naturally?

Just personal opinion?
or anti homophobia?

Has anyone yet explained their reason(s) for believing it necessary for a child to have a mother and a father?

Is such a belief just that, a belief, or is there some proper, studied evidence to support such a position?

nope and I keep asking, as I seem to be the only person here who has experienced not having a parent, my father died when I was 2 I remember exactly nothing about him and it seems to have not mattered much in my life.

Father and Mother then 9 months later become parents to there own offspring

I take it you’re opposed to adoption generally, then?

{Smileys don’t excuse you… Mod}

My parents were of a socially acceptable age when they had me’. That said, my father was a wife beater who kicked the living daylights out of my mum. He tried it once with me’ and was removed from my life pretty sharpish, had nothing to do with him since I was about 8 properly. I’d rather have some really old dude or a second mummy in the father role than one who tried to manipulate and hurt me. Give a child any loving and responsible parent and they will be happy. All this stuff about the problems of mum or dad being missing or same sex relationships not providing the same balance as the ‘traditional’ family is way out of date along with ‘only mummies and daddies’ being able to make babies. There are thousands of babies born through ivf/surrogacy and the likes nowadays. It’s naive to think that the old ways were the best ways. They were not.

My experience of life is that they do

So you’ve never met any children from divorced parents who seemed happy and healthy? Sorry, but I just don’t believe you. I personally know plenty.

I can accept your conclusion is different to mine. But to say either is wrong is arrogant and ignorant.

You stated that children need a mother and a father. You are wrong in using the word need. Is that better? I have experienced both living in a family with an unhappy marriage and subsequently as part of a single parent family. The second situation was far better. Children do not need a mother and a father, they need love. Sometimes divorce is better for everyone involved.

I don’t see any wrong since they have the money to feed the kid(s) and not rely on the society, unlike some who keep having children only to burden the society. i.e. cannot feed or bring them up properly.

I hope the children will inherit all the wealth and live happily ever after.

Good luck to them.

But again what do I know I bought a dog

emma82- i’m sorry to hear that, but you seem to have come out the other end OK and I agree with what you’re saying. As long as kids have a loving stable upbringing they’ll do OK.

X2

KT1973 Mods deleted your …………

project – Member
KT1973 Mods deleted your …………

Ah well……. At least I’m still here! I’m sure it was taken in the context it was intended and with a large pinch of salt 😉

To be honest I am shocked that you all choose to ignore the obvious perversion which will result in him getting a severely hard time in school, well, if he went to a normal school anyway. I guess whatever posh private school there will be others there just like him. But, if he turned up in a state school, he’s just asking for a kicking. I mean seriously did you guys just skim the details or are you choosing to ignore it is some fit of PC-ness. FFS! Just look at it! Zachary Jackson Levon Furnish-John! C’mon! It’s not natural for someone to have that kind of name.

Emma, that’s awful, but brave of you to share the experience. I’ve only ever had loving and supportive parents I can’t imagine how hard that must have been for you.

How silly all this bickering must seem to you.

OP

As Terry Wogan might say “Is it just me?”

Yep, looks like it is.

Having read through all of the sadly predictable comments, just ask yourself if you’d have posted something up if, say, Mick Jagger had fathered a child? Might have raised an eyebrow, I’ll grant you, might have raised both eyebrows if a surrogate mother was involved. But you’d almost certainly not have posted up your thread.

Which means that your thread is, de facto, a comment on Elton John’s sexuality. In fact, it comes across as nothing more than (not-so) veiled homophobia.

You could always apologise, but sadly, I don’t think you will.

So it’s not about the parents being gay….but if me and my gf have a child, pilot and Trailmonkey think it’s wrong, so it is about us being gay?

Emz, I definitely don’t think it’s wrong for you and your gf to have a child. I do however think it’s wrong if you choose to have a baby – you’re presumably going to choose a man of good character – and then you choose to deliberately exclude him from its life in favour of your partner. If you don’t, and the dad wants to be involved and the kid can have a relationship with its dad, as well as with you and your partner – great. If you adopt, even better.

And to everyone who says they didn’t know their dad and it hasn’t done them any harm, I’m sure it hasn’t. And I also believe that it’s better in certain circumstances not to have a father in your life, ie better to be without than to have a father who is a negative influence. For the record I don’t get on particularly well with my father but I’m glad I know who he is and I’m glad I know him as a person, kind of explains who I am and why I do some of the things I do.

In fairness, we don’t know what Elton’s plan is. The mother may be involved. I still think it would have been better for him to adopt but there you go. But he’s still definitely too old to have a biological child IMO, as is any man of that age, gay or straight.

You could always apologise, but sadly, I don’t think you will.

Of course I won’t.

Would I have posted something if MIck Jagger had decided to pay a surrogate to produce a child for him?

Guess what, actually I probably I would have, yeah.

Who are you, firstly to tell me what I would or wouldn’t have done, and then to draw some conclusion about my character from your projection of my response.

You cheeky sod.

Cougar,

They aren’t adopting. A surrogate is producing a child for them. As it is happening in California it is possible that a large amount of cash is changing hands.

… and?

Expanding on that slightly, what I mean is,

Does that have any bearing (other than me being nominally wrong in my original post)? Is the salient point “surrogate mothers” here? Or is surrogacy ok so long as there’s no financial gain?

If it -had- been an adoption instead, would that have been fine? Or, if it was someone who wasn’t a (gay) celebrity, would that have been fine?

What’s the actual problem here? Just so we’re clear, y’know.

f it -had- been an adoption instead, would that have been fine?

It would have been better.

Do you not see any difference between creating a baby and giving a home to one that already exists?

rightplacerighttime – it will be wanted and cared for which gives it a head start over a large part of humanity who exist as a result of accident, fecklessness or carelessness, and who are then neglected or mistreated and live brutish unhappy lives…

I do think some people on this thread are grubbing around for a reason to disapprove of this. I suspect that David F will make a great “mum”, and Elton a rather eccentric but interesting Dad. Good luck to the sprog.

CharlieMungus – Member

To be honest I am shocked that you all choose to ignore the obvious perversion which will result in him getting a severely hard time in school, well, if he went to a normal school anyway. I guess whatever posh private school there will be others there just like him. But, if he turned up in a state school, he’s just asking for a kicking. I mean seriously did you guys just skim the details or are you choosing to ignore it is some fit of PC-ness. FFS! Just look at it! Zachary Jackson Levon Furnish-John! C’mon! It’s not natural for someone to have that kind of name.

That’s part of growing up but in a more serious situation I bet a few bodyguards will sort that out rather easily. 😆

Of course I see a “difference”, I’m just unclear as to specifically which bit is the scandal. Arguing against surrogacy is a potentially interesting topic of discussion, sure, but is that really that what this thread is about?

Because you see, on the face of it the story here essentially seems to be “celebrated bottom bandit and wierdo Elton John is now looking after a baby, ZOMG won’t someone think of the children,” which leaves a bad taste in my mouth to be honest. I’m just trying to establish if that’s the case and if not then where, specifically, the sticking point lies.

Have I not been clear? Why don’t you READ what I’ve said instead of giving vent to your own prejudices. Just to save you looking back here are a few extracts.

So far as I can see, they would be nowhere near the top of the list if they wanted to go through normal adoption channels in the UK. Leaving aside the issue of whether it might be good for a child to have a female “mother” figure to run to as it grows up, they are both knocking on a bit, and Elton at least has not been without a few problems in his personal life that would lead me to question very strongly whether he would be a good parent.

Why do you imagine that my discomfort is just to do with the fact that they are a gay couple?

Actually I think that is certainly an issue, but I’m more concerned about their age, their lifestyle and the fact that they seem to have chosen to “buy” a baby.

And as far as their “rights” go, I couldn’t give a stuff – I’m actually more interested in the rights of the child.

Personally I am deeply suspicious of anyone who decided to circumvent the normal adoption procedures or UK surrogacy procedures by going abroad. In particular, in California there are far fewer restrictions on surrogacy than in the UK – ie it is OK not just to cover expenses, but to pay the surrogate mother however much you like.

But quite often people are “classed” as too old because they are actually too old. I know that that means that maybe there will be a bit of injustice in some cases, but personally I don’t think the solution is that anything goes.

Personally I’m not looking forward to the day that 8 year old Zachary comes out dressed as Louis the 14th for his dad’s 70th birthday party, though I’m sure the editors of Hello and OK are already busy pencilling it into their diaries.

he [Elton] has a lot of addictive personality traits – alcohol, cocaine, bulemia, shopaholic etc. These are not insignificant issues.

+ age

+ (I would imagine) the frequent celebrity detachment from reality.

+ (and I’ll add this only in terms of what any kid might feel like as part of any minority group) being a son of a gay couple might throw up a few problems of its own.

So now we’ve got over that distraction, do you think that his past alcoholism, drug addiction and bulemia say anything about him as a potential parent?

And if you think that they don’t say anything about his personality, do you think they are things that might have any bearing on his life expectancy?

How come you don’t think that there might even be some tiny cause for concern that a 62 year old man with a long history of drug abuse, alcohol abuse, and eating disorders (to mention BUT A FEW of his personal problems) might be able to simply BUY a baby to order if he feels like it?

Better yet, why don’t you stop digging yourself a hole.

As I said, yes, it obviously IS just you. The rest of us think that Elton will be no worse a parent than many,many others. You disagree, which is your right.

But now can you give it a rest? You’re making yourself look ridiculous as well as bigoted; not a great combination.

Elton John in the Torygraph:

Speaking in January the singer said: “David and I have always talked about adoption, David always wanted to adopt a child and I always said ‘no’ because I am 62 and I think because of the travelling I do and the life I have, maybe it wouldn’t be fair for the child.” But he said he had changed his mind after their “hearts were stolen” by the child they met in Ukraine, who they were not allowed to adopt.

Not just me who has doubts then?

And nickf, so long as anyone wants to argue the toss with me then I’m happy to argue my corner too. If you don’t like that, then go find another thread, or another forum.

rightplacerighttime – Member

Not just me who has doubts then?

And nickf, so long as anyone wants to argue the toss with me then I’m happy to argue my corner too. If you don’t like that, then go find another thread, or another forum.

FFS ladies! 😆