emsz,

You are being dense – I think Junkyard asked the question “imagine he had a history of abusing children would that matter?” because you appeared to be saying that someone’s history shoudn’t be taken into account when assessing whether they would be a good parent.

You mention his previous lifestyle, what’s that got to do with anything?

So now we’ve got over that distraction, do you think that his past alcoholism, drug addiction and bulemia say anything about him as a potential parent?

And if you think that they don’t say anything about his personality, do you think they are things that might have any bearing on his life expectancy?

Oh no emsz stw massive can see into the future and already know that Elton will be dead by 65 from his bulimia and shopping addiction, leaving the baby penniless and without a hope in the world. 😕

What a load of tosh.

Righttimerightplce I think that makes him a human being with all the normal human failings. I’d imagine you could find any number of straight couples with those personality traits as well

Emma’s right, this is tosh

I grew up with a lad who’s parents were really old, I thought they were his grandparents when I first saw them. They are no longer with us but then neither is my dad who was a “acceptable” age to have a child.
His parents were amazing and did a fine job of raising him.

age is irrelevant, sexual orientation is irrelevant.

Concentrate on your own lives not that of others.

trailmonkey what do you mean a mom? a Mother ? are we american now?

No, I called my maternal parent my mom on account of me being working class and from B’ham. Although I don’t see why it should be an issue anyhow.

SO you are not against it re sexuality but they should have a mom – how does that work for gay men then ? sems like you have excluded them to me.

They may be excluded by gender, they’re not being excluded by sexuality. There could be two brothers living together that wanted to adopt, I’d feel the same about that.

Oh DO get lost, you couple of tiresome homophobes. 🙄

trailmonkey’s talking sense on this one. They are being totally selfish. To adopt a child in their position is one thing but to go out an engineer one is something totally wrong as far as I’m concerned.

And please, no one is being homophobic. The whole ‘is it because he is gay’ thing is getting really tiresome now.

Engineer? They used a surrogate!!! If your going to go down the whole ‘it’s wrong to create a human with scientific assistance’ which is what you seem to be saying then we’re heading towards a whole different argument surely?

But hey, this thread has it all, homophobia, ageism and prejudice against those with mental health issues. What is going on.

Elton is going to be essentially sponsoring a child isn’t he?

I mean, he’s not going to be getting up in the night to feed it, change its nappies, read bedtime stories, sit in A&E, iron school uniforms, make packed lunches and so on; he’s going to pay someone else to do it.

…like many other children of the idle rich I suppose.

I’m sure the odd birthday party will be featured in Hello magazine, and cutely dressed little un will get in the papers tho..

But hey, this thread has it all, homophobia……….

Where ? You might accuse me of sexism by daring to suggest that children should ideally have a mom but do you know what, I’ll live with that if I thought that that weight of opinion might make childrens lives’ better.

But the Pilot is right, all this ‘izzit cos dey is gay’ stuff is pretty lame.

What about a female – female couple?

My dad died when I was 16. He was 59. I guess, going by the state of this board, he should have had me when he was 20 or something….

Lets ignore the gay aspect of it, however hard it is for people to do here. The biggest question is ‘will the child have a good life’. He’ll certainly not want for anything. He’ll be brought up with a nanny I should think. The only views we have of Elton/David are the things on the telly, I don’t know what they are really like so can’t really say.

I even say that about Fatcha. I abhore her policies and she came over like an evil monster but I only saw what was on the telly. For all I know she’s a really nice person. Saying that, look how her son turned out! 😀

The phrase about taking planks out of your own eyes keeps coming to mind here….

You might accuse me of sexism by daring to suggest that children should ideally have a mom

We don’t live in an ideal world. And the most salient point is that the child is loved, not the gender of the person caring for it. And you didn’t suggest that children should ideally have a mom, you put it a lot more strongly than that. How do you feel about fathers for example? Are they expendable?

FFS canigetoffendedforyouworld strikes again.

No we don’t live in an ideal world, however for the nth time, this isn’t about a child being saved from an imperfect situation, this is about a child being borne into one out of design. Yes i do feel strongly about it, it’s horrible that a child should not have a mom, I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. I’m sure that there are lots of fantastic fathers out there who have struggled through terrible circumstances to bring up kids on their own and have raised wonderful children but that’s not the issue that we’re talkin about is it ?

Trailmonkey – then please elucidate: what *is* the issue?

The point I was making is that there are lots of people who grow up in families which are not mom+dad +2.5 kids. There are plenty on here, including me. If you think that some of those families situations are horrible, and you wouldn’t wish it on anyone, then I pity your ignorance because it is perfectly possible for those families to produce well balanced decent human beings.

Methinks the homophobe protesteth too much…

Trailmonkey – then please elucidate: what *is* the issue?

this is about a child being borne into an imperfect situation out of design.

There are plenty on here, including me. If you think that some of those families situations are horrible, and you wouldn’t wish it on anyone, then I pity your ignorance because it is perfectly possible for those families to produce well balanced decent human beings

Of course there are and of course it is but how many of those situations were contrived ? Really, is it that bad a thing to wish that children at least have the chance of a mother ? Jesus 🙄
And my knowledge of a family situation being horrible is not borne of ignorance so reel your own in a little.

trailmonkey, you’ve made some worthwhile points about his age but this has me intrigued can you explain it

choosing for a child not to have a mother is despicable.

Because I think deliberately depriving a child of it’s/a mother is a horrible thing.

Do you know what ? If that makes me a bad person then shoot me.

If you think it makes me a homophobe then you’re a tard.

Over and out.

Well bugger me,(old northern saying)Congratualtions on David and elton becoming fathers, if baby Zachary could choose his parenmts who do you think he would choose, some woman, film or popstar, so far oop there own arse the baby is just seen as a token like a handbag, with a husband who is a bit thick, but has a saleable face. Quite a few around to see.

Or Elton and David 2 multimillionaires , who have wanted a baby and a child that the baby grows into for a long time. Two people who can pay for decent care, and a possible uni education in latter life.

Best wishes to them.

What about a female – female couple?

2xMum = Awesome > 2xDad

Because I think deliberately depriving a child of it’s/a mother is a horrible thing.

clearly but why was my question, I had no father its not really bothered me, is that not as bad in your eye?

Trailmonkey, you’ll probably find that a reasonable percentage of those situations were contrived, in that people with free will made the decision for the family not to be a normal unit. I’m sorry about your family situation. To speak plainly, your strong desire to see every family with a mother does imply that those without are incomplete, lacking in some way which makes the situation “horrible”. Would you feel the same way about two women, for example?

I just feel that a loving family unit is the important thing, the nature of its constituent parts less so. Whether Elton John and his partner can provide that is something none of us can know. And as others have suggested, there are factors involved that I’d see as being more relevant than the sex of either parent.

Over and out.

Don’t blame you trialmonkey.
Some people on this thread just want to take offence.

Re surrogacy Emma82, well what is it other that engineering? And yeah, with so many people on the planet and so many unwanted kids in the world I do think people should at least think before exercising their ‘right’ to have a child.
And re two women having a child, yep I think it’s wrong to deliberately deny your child a father, just as much as it’s wrong to deliberately deny it a mother.

To me, this smacks of self-indulgence. It will however provide employment a-plenty for all the outsourcing that will inevitably take place.

I’m tending to agree with trailmonkey, crikey and The Pilot.

But then, what do I know?

C_G
mother of 2 adult children brought up in the ‘traditional’ way.

So it’s not about the parents being gay….but if me and my gf have a child, pilot and Trailmonkey think it’s wrong, so it is about us being gay?

You can’t have it both ways guys

What about a female – female couple?

We know a lesbian couple who adopted.
From what I recall (we know them through MrsMM), the ladies were actually quite near the top of the list when it came to being accepted for adopting – both professionals, steady careers, long term relationship etc etc.
They adopted two boys whose parents were no longer fit to look after them, through drug abuse…
I’m told all is well with the new family unit – not without it’s difficulties but, I’d guess, that is not uncommon in ‘adoptive relationships’ as everyone gets used to each other / new lives together.

I think it’s wrong to deliberately deny your child a father, just as much as it’s wrong to deliberately deny it a mother.

Why? Would you then force people in unhappy relationships (or indeed, no relationship at all) to stay together?

We know a lesbian couple who adopted.

There’s no real need (other than in the context of STW…) for the sexuality of parents to be related or even considered. There is a significant difference between adoption and surrogacy, and even more difference between surrogacy and paid-lots-of-money-by-celebrities surrogacy.

Okey dokey, it’s not an argument that anyone can win because peoples opinions are engrained in them so I’ll leave it there. I’m sure elton and David won’t give two hoots either way. They’ll be too busy watching their nanny change nappies and make bottles 😆

Edit: 63 is far too old to be a father.

There is a significant difference between adoption and surrogacy, and even more difference between surrogacy and paid-lots-of-money-by-celebrities surrogacy.

I agree

He/she/it’ll never want for flowers anyway….

To lighten the mood somewhat; I was grumbling to the gf who’s taking up most the dining room with course work * points to mound of text books where there was once a gf* about this thread and she went White as a sheet

“isn’t it a bit soon to be talking about families?”

Haha LOLing at her.

We know a lesbian couple who adopted.

There’s no real need (other than in the context of STW…) for the sexuality of parents to be related or even considered. There is a significant difference between adoption and surrogacy, and even more difference between surrogacy and paid-lots-of-money-by-celebrities surrogacy.

crikey – just for the record, the ‘fix’ was not required. My response was direct to emma’s earlier question – I was merely confirming the couple concerned are female and gay. I wasn’t not making any other form of statement on the sexuality of the couple or their suitability to adopt…

Emsz it does look a little like you’re playing sexual politics here. None of the remarks are neccessarily homophobic but it does look like you’re trying to push that as an agenda.

I don’t believe that same sex couples should be allowed to adopt either. I believe, like TrailMonkey, that children need both a mother and a father.

On that basis, I don’t believe that single people should be allowed to adopt on the same basis.

That’s got nothing to do with sexuality primarily and everything to do with what I believe to be important for society. But the byproduct is that in that world, you would have a policy that does treat same sex couples differently to hetrosexual couples. My whole life I’ve been an ardent defender of equality and in particular gay rights.

These views were formed early in my career when I actually acted as a witness for a close friend (who has since died of Aids) who was bullied out of his job because he was gay. He brought a case and acted as a witness for him at the tribunal. It cost me my job but I felt very strongly about what I had seen.

So, I am not sure whether believing that a child needs a mother and a father makes me homophobic or not in everyone else’s mind, but it doesn’t in mine.

I am not sure whether believing that a child needs a mother and a father

why do you think that?

have I stumbled on mumsnet or the Daily Fail website?

WGAF about stuff like this? Why are so many so quick to judge?

The couple are free to do what view have done. Plenty of kids born into worse situations.

Get over yourselves! This makes the VPP thread look heavenly!

geetee1972 – Member
Emsz it does look a little like you’re playing sexual politics here. None of the remarks are neccessarily homophobic but it does look like you’re trying to push that as an agenda.

I don’t believe that same sex couples should be allowed to adopt either. I believe, like TrailMonkey, that children need both a mother and a father.

On that basis, I don’t believe that single people should be allowed to adopt on the same basis.

So, I am not sure whether believing that a child needs a mother and a father makes me homophobic or not in everyone else’s mind, but it doesn’t in mine.

Posted 1 minute ago # Report-Post

So what happens when the kids parents divorce, row every day, become alchoholicsor druggies, or even one dies.

What happens to the kid the, the parent has to get married straightaway to give the child 2 parents.

Sadly gay bullying is still there from both sides it appears.