If they moaned at the time of the sell-offs, or were too young to moan at the time, then yes, they're allowed to moan very loud now.
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Singletrack Office Electricity Bill - £777 for 2 months with nPower
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Posted 3 years ago #
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I'm with all the other Ragged Trousered Philanthropists devotees here
The necessities of life should be publicly owned & run for the good of the public not just shareholders
Posted 3 years ago # -
I grew up when Gas, Leccy and Water were all state-run, and bills were relatively a lot lower than they are now.
Have you got the numbers to back that up? I'm not sure it's actually the case, I think the cost of utilities hs gone down in real terms (I could be wrong, a definitive answer would be good)
What I don't appreciate is that I should also have to pay a premium to line the pockets of 'investors'.
Many/most of those investors being pension funds, without which we'd be screwed.
I think (and I don't have the figures) that the amounts taken as profit (much of which is reinvested) are probaby less than the amount that would be wasted if it were run by the state. Name one, well run, efficient, state-controlled entity.
Posted 3 years ago # -
last year we made no profit because we reinvested everything in a power station and a new wind farm
this year we will be investing in upgrading another power station and work will start on another wind farmPosted 3 years ago # -
The cost of utilities did go down in real terms for a long time after privatisation. Not sure on the position now as we are still riding out the commodity spike in gas and power that happened and is finished in oil.
I'm unsure if we would be in a better position now if we had remained a nationalised industry, I suspect we would as the govenment would'nt have been taxing North Sea revenues but reinvesting them more heavily in storage and generation.
With regard to tarriffs Spongebob, all companies have a standard tarrif which will go up and down with the market, albeit smoothed out a bit so you dont have to pay the spike and you pay a bit more when prices are at the bottom. On the whole Gas and power is a low margin business 4-5% so what we are charging you is far form extortion, and what is left after dividends is being reinvested in future supply. We can't predict the forward price that well as we are a NET importer of Gas so fixed tarrifs ofted DO work well for customers. I fixed in 2005 at a premium and thats is about 35% lower than the standard tariff today. I never forsaw the current comodity price!
With regards investors, Most of our shares are held by big funds which are your pension, its in your intrests generaly for us to do well and probably not to buy gas and Power from businesses owned by companies not listed on the FTSE 100.*
With regard not knowing how much you use or are paying - people need to wake up. You spend more on Gas and Power than on petrol and I bet you can tell me your cars mpg and the price of fuel, but I bet you cant do the same for your boiler or gas bill!
*These are my views not the views of the utility comapy I work for
Posted 3 years ago # -
Have you got the numbers to back that up? I'm not sure it's actually the case,
Don't need figures. Everyone I know, who new the 70s and before, says that the relative cost of fuel has gone up. And they've certainly gone up by a massive amount in the last year or so.
Many/most of those investors being pension funds, without which we'd be screwed.
Who'd be screwed? There are plenty of other things for pension funds to invest in. And, like, pension funds are so secure, right?
Profits from utilities could go into increasing state pensions, thius decreasing the need for private pension plans.
Hide your heads in the sand all you like; privatising everything was a mistake. Why does everything have to be about money? What about people, ffs?
Wildrnes, who's 'we'? British Gas?
Thoe Government now pays out 'winter fuel payments' to elderly and vulnerable people, as many of them simply cannot afford the huge costs of heating their homes adequately, during winter. Where does this money come from? Taxpayers. While shareholders reap huge dividends.
No, sorry, Necessary utilities should not be in the hands of private enterprise. Simple as that. You can make whatever bogus economic argument you like; People should come before profit.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Rudeboy, like I just said, you need to put those profits in context. They are 5% margin. British Gas have to publish their results here, no such requirement for the other utilities which are privatley owned. I wonder what EDF and EON are pocketing in terms of margin from UK consumers.
Did you miss the bit where I said that profits go to Uk pensions, that includes investments made by local governments for their pension pots too you know.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Excuse me, but don't go telling me that "UK Pensions" are "our pensions" because they're not.
Private pension funds protect the rich in retirement far more than the rest of us, that's if they protect anyone at all and don't disappear leaving the tax payer to foot the bill.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Did you miss the bit where I said that profits go to Uk pensions, that includes investments made by local governments for their pension pots too you know.
I did, actually. I'm on about SRP, not any other form of additional payment. This comes from the National Insurance Fund, toward which we all pay. Unless I'm missing something?
I admit I'm not expert on the complexities of our Economy, but I know one thing; Privatisation hazzunt worked. Simply because there is insufficient regulation. Becasuse our spineless governments don't have the balls to regulate private industries sufficiently, to ensure any wealth generated by profit is spread a little more fairly and evenly throughout our society.
Norway's fuel industries are mainly state-owned. People pay relatively high taxes in Norway, but enjoy a much higher standard of living than in the UK. Granted, it has a much smaller population, but they spread the wealth more evenly. Norway has nothing like the levels of social deprivation we have in Britain.
Norway looks after it's people better than Britain does.
Why is our economy fecked? Why are we facing increased unemployment, less resources to tackle growing social issues? And increasing amount of Child Poverty?
Greed. Pure and simple.
So, all the utilities were sold off, the Quick Buck made, and now we have nowt to fall back on.
Brilliant.
Profit before people; cos, of course, people don't matter, right?
Posted 3 years ago # -
Don't need figures. Everyone I know, who new the 70s and before, says that the relative cost of fuel has gone up. And they've certainly gone up by a massive amount in the last year or so.
Oh right, as long as we can base everything on anecdotal evidence and hearsay then everything will be just dandy.
Did you know that policemen are getting younger too. And, of course, it wouldn't have happened in my day, when this was all fields...
Sheesh.
Posted 3 years ago # -
OK, here is my radical plan.
Currently - the more you sell, the more profit you make. The more energy you generate, the more you can sell, the more profit you make. Any other consideration - especially social and environmental - take a back seat.
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The solution?
Flat rate of energy bills for all, per kg/CO2/m2/annumn.
Why? How? WTF?
That means the most profitable company is the one that persuades its customers to use LESS. Efficiency becomes king.
Suddenly energy companies will want you to reduce use of energy, and want you to use the most efficient, low carbon energy you can.
The companies will be falling over themselves to insulate houses, reduce drafts, have low energy photocopiers in offices etc etc.
.
Instead of sticking STW towers with a huge bill, they will offer that hydro turbine for free....
.
Come the revolution.Posted 3 years ago # -
Norway's fuel industries are mainly state-owned. People pay relatively high taxes in Norway, but enjoy a much higher standard of living than in the UK. Granted, it has a much smaller population, but they spread the wealth more evenly. Norway has nothing like the levels of social deprivation we have in Britain.
Norway looks after it's people better than Britain does.
Would it be churlish to ask why you dont **** off to Norway then?
Actually, have you just tried to link privatisation of the utilities to the increase in child poverty? Blimey. Now, I'm proud of my bleeding heart liberal sensibilities but even I struggle to square that circle. That's some tinfoil hat you must have.
Posted 3 years ago # -
OK, here is my radical plan....
surely you would have to have some kind of system linked to number of residents at a property and size of property. Oh hang on thats a poll tax isn't it
Posted 3 years ago # -
You're the one who wants to look at figures; you go and find them.
I can't find any, and we must take the early 70's Oil Crisis into account, but many people reckon a greater and greater percentage of their income is going towards paying household fuel bills. Considering we're sposed to have greater fuel efficiency and that, it seems strange that this cost is going up so much.
Privatisation = More competition = lower prices for consumer MY ARSE.
Privatisation = More money for the rich. Simple as.
Anyway, even if costs were similar, the fact is that more and more profits from our natural and necessary resources go into private coffers. This does not serve the People of this nation, as a whole.
You know I'm right, too. You can bleat and whine on about 'Free Market Economy' and whatever, all you like.
This nation is getting poorer. And has bugger all to fall back on.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Is this not an unfair contract term - its not individually negotiated is it? I know the UTCCRs only apply to consumers, but I'd still threaten court action. Rate doubled after a lock-in applies. It's only £70 or so to file in small claims?
Posted 3 years ago # -
Would it be churlish to ask why you dont **** off to Norway then?
No, it would simply be the response of someone who's lost an argument. Proven by the fact they need to resort to abuse.
Actually, have you just tried to link privatisation of the utilities to the increase in child poverty?
No, I merely mentioned how state-ownership and control of utilities and stuff ensures that any profits made would go into public coffers, rather than private ones. Which would surely benefit more people in our society. But if you want to be selective in your interpretation, I can't stop you.
So, clever-clogs; how would you propose this nation claws it's way out of the mire created by greed, neglect and indifference?
Posted 3 years ago # -
Privatisation = More money for the rich. Simple as.
In the few years after privatisation, competition drove down prices and increased efficiency at British Gas. The underlying issue IMHO is underinvestment in generation, extraction and storage, this has been woefully neglected by the structuring of the UK Gas and power market, manly by the Govenment. Not aided either by the 75% corporation tax on North Sea revenue.
Rudeboy, perhaps you should be asking the Labour government for the money rather than the Rich?!?
Posted 3 years ago # -
surely you would have to have some kind of system linked to number of residents at a property and size of property.
Nope. Read my suggestion - in line with Good Homes Alliance, Association for Environmentally Concious Building, WWF, Greenpeace, heck even the government and building regs next year - watts/m2/year and CO2/m2/year is all you need as a measure.
You want to live solo in a mansion - your choice.
Posted 3 years ago # -
"I think (and I don't have the figures) that the amounts taken as profit (much of which is reinvested) are probaby less than the amount that would be wasted if it were run by the state"
Interested in this statement IHN, have you seen evidence for this being the case?
Posted 3 years ago # -
That's some tinfoil hat you must have.
Now theres an energy saving suggestion!Posted 3 years ago # -
matt, dont understand how that works? The same consumption would appear to be cheaper in a larger property??
Posted 3 years ago # -
"I think (and I don't have the figures) that the amounts taken as profit (much of which is reinvested) are probaby less than the amount that would be wasted if it were run by the state"
Interested in this statement IHN, have you seen evidence for this being the case?
No, I haven't. It may not be true. It was just a musing on my part, wondering on the relative sizes of the profits of private companies and the inefficiencies of government run utilities.
Like it or not, government run utilities always tend to be inefficient as there is no reward for beinf efficient. Even if the end-user price is kept low, you'll still pay the rest via taxation.
Fred - I take back the Norway comment, that was just crass. Apologies. To be honest, I agree with you about water, where they've simply replaced public monopolies with private ones. For all the rest, I think the market works. Ideally they would be state-owned and run like clockwork but, let's face it, it's a Utopian dream.
As for the profits, remember that a) they're taxed so add a lot of money into the exchequer and b) the majority is ploughed back in to new pipes, faster exchanges, new power stations, blah blah.
Posted 3 years ago # -
kelvin - Member
Dig your own well : you still have to pay for the water you extract.
Was looking at boreholes, for most of the UK less than 20 cubic meters a day means no licence, no payments.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Actually, on the Norway thing:
Yesterday:
...the emigrating Brits are miserable moaning bastards who don't realise what a great country this actually is.
Hmm, can we swap the miserable buggers for those willing to try and make a new life here?
Today:
So, clever-clogs; how would you propose this nation claws it's way out of the mire created by greed, neglect and indifference?
You can't have it both ways Fred.
Posted 3 years ago # -
{quote]Was looking at boreholes, for most of the UK less than 20 cubic meters a day means no licence, no payments.[/quote]
I thought it was a lower limit then that? 20 cubic meters seems doable. When my parent put their one in (no mains water where they are) I'd be surprised if we were using that much, and there were bills to pay. Limits may have changed.
Would it be churlish to ask why you dont **** off to Norway then?
Or seek to improve things here? Looking to learn lessons from elsewhere seems sound to me.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Fair enough IHN, although I was tempted to point out the irony of you telling Rude Boy off for relying on anecdotes
Surely there are ways to make government run utilities more efficient. What is the difference between your shareholders demanding more profit or a group of government suits? Is it that the public sector is not allowed to pay top whack for the best management? Who knows, I certainly don't, but like most I would prefer for the essentials in life to be provided by the state.
Widening the debate a bit, I'd much rather have BR back than the mess we have right now. Anyone agree?
Posted 3 years ago # -
Was looking at boreholes, for most of the UK less than 20 cubic meters a day means no licence, no payments.
Where I live you pay water rates regardless of how much [if any] water you use, which is how it should be
Rudeboy, not sure you can compare percentages of income from the 70s Vs now
Although things are vastly more energy efficient - the sheer amount of electrical goods that a house has now compared to then is colossalPosted 3 years ago # -
like most I would prefer for the essentials in life to be provided by the state.
Where do you draw the line, housing, food, cars, clothes
Careful or you'll end up in a Communist Eutopia, no doubt run by a load of rich corupt cronies
Posted 3 years ago # -
Housing, food, cars, clothes - markets that people can understand, not perfect, but they are free markets mainly (cars less and less so in recent months)
Water, Gas & Electricity distribution - made up markets, completely fake constructs put in place in recent years
Posted 3 years ago # -
One
Hun
Dread.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Fred - I take back the Norway comment, that was just crass. Apologies
That's ok. I respect you for apologising. FWIW; I don't harbour any ill-feeling towards you at all, and look forward to riding with you Cotswold massive lot sometime!
And I'm sorry; for being a bit simplistic about stuff like this, and expressing my anger at the inequalities within this system, rather than being completely rational. TBH, not being able to ride me bike or go swimming atm is pissing me off. So, I do get a little het up about stuff. I hope no-one takes my rantyness too seriously, although I am concerned with the direction this Nation seems to be going in.
I am proud to be British, and want to try and do my little bit to make things better. I do think it's important to learn from others, and to try out ideas which might work here.
S'not that simple, is it?
I dunno. Spose I'm just someone who gives a shit about others, unlike some of our wonderful politicians, or some of the corporate fat-cats who seem to be rewarded for failure.
I can't help thinking that there has to be an alternative to the 'get rich quick' way of thinking that seems to pervade our society. Socialism? Well, I'm not an expert on such an ideology, but I do think that giving people a fair and even crack at opportunities is preferable to the elitist form of current social and economic organisation.
And we need to look after our people. Those who are vulnerable, and those who need extra support. We need to start caring about each other a lot more.
Good that we have these discussions. Sharing ideas is important, in order to progress as a Society.
Posted 3 years ago # -
OK djglover, perhaps I could have worded it better. Can't see how cars are essential to life though. Kelvin made the point I was angling at; where it is impossible to have a free market why are we pretending it is possible. I'd argue that we could do with a bit more regulation in the food industry too. Or maybe just ban supermarkets
Posted 3 years ago # -
Microgeneration is the future though I think. the onus is on YOU to look after your OWN energy needs and then sell what you don't use to the grid, for the poor and the unintrested. Planning rules will be relaxed and you will be able to stick a wind turbine and solar pannel on your roof.
Posted 3 years ago # -
I'd much rather have BR back than the mess we have right now. Anyone agree?
Ooh! Ooh! (Jumps up and down, with hand in the air)
Virgin Trains. 'Virgin'? More like, 'Completely Shagged and Promiscuous Trains'....
CONnex....
Slow West Trains...
I believe fatalities from rail accidents have risen dramatically, since privatisation. Lack of vital investment in maintenance is certainly to blame for too many of those lives being lost.
Power to the People!
Posted 3 years ago # -
You need some new lenses in your rose tinted spectacles Fred
Posted 3 years ago #
Topic Closed
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