I’ve just had a conversation with my neighbour. Explained to her that I wish I had bought the euro’s for my holiday yesterday.

Why she said, are they more expensive today?. I explained the potential ramifications of what had happened, the financial turmoil, the Scottish issue etc.

Oh, she said – I voted out. Don’t really know much about politics but my husband wanted me to vote out so I did. Are we not going to be better off then?

Now, I absolutely defend her right to vote if offered the opportunity but should people even have been asked the question and then forced to decide on such a bag of **** information and to have people voting on such a fundamental issue which really they know nothing about?

Isn’t it the politicians job to make such decisions?

Let them eat cake

Does it really matter? It’s happened now and that’s that. We can’t change what is now documented history.

We can, however move forward as best we can and that’s about I think

As Churchill said

“The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter”

And the Mash had it yesterday

nail, head, hit

No.

Explained to her that I wish I had bought the euro’s for my holiday yesterday.

Rooky mistake, I bought mine on yesterday. What on earth were you thinking? 🙂

@PdF – yes it does matter if that uninformed decision has the chance of completely wrecking the country…

Unfortunately it seems that political claims and posturing are not covered by Trading Standards Laws! The leave campaign, based it seems on a complete absence of facts, is now, just a few hours after the won, looking like a deer in the headlights, wondering which way it can jump!

The “save the NHS” adverts for the leave campaign were a case in point! And the BBC just interviewed a Welsh lady, who when asked “you voted out, which seems odd considering that Wales is net positive in terms of EU spending” and she replied “well, yeah, but we are FREE now arn’t we”. er, Free from what? People giving you money? 😆

referendums in general are a sign of weak government/ democracy.

Politics is about compromise, referendums are a coin toss, a slippery shoulder of the government to not make a difficult decision.

Referendums are banned in Germany, due to the manipulation of them to back up the Nazi parties ideology.

I get the uneasy feeling that the leave campaign not only didn’t know what they would do when they won but didn’t know because they didn’t expect to.

They wanted to puff up their chests, bloody some noses, have a fight etc but now they realise that they’ve made a shit load of promises they simply can’t deliver on – hence Farage’s immediate admission that this £350m doesn’t actually exist.

But they’ve promised people immigration in the 10’s of thousands (look where that promise got CMD), they’ve promised all the EU grants will be maintaine, that people will have more work prospects and better wages.

All simply not deliverable and now they’ve got to start thinking quickly as to either how to continue the blag or b) how to extricate themselves from the mess.

Probably by deflecting as much fire on to Corbyn for as long as possible and hope people are similarly distracted by Sturgeon et al up north.

It was only held to help Cameron win the last election because he was scared UKIP would mean a labour victory. There was never any principled reason for it. So we are now leaving the EU because Cameron wanted to be PM and win the last election.

I get the uneasy feeling that the leave campaign not only didn’t know what they would do when they won but didn’t know because they didn’t expect to.

It was a cross party campaign – there is no single manifesto – they made no promises that you can reasonably expect them to honour – at most they are hopes.

@PdF – yes it does matter if that uninformed decision has the chance of completely wrecking the country…

I was answering the thread title question. Personally I think it was daft and shouldn’t have happened, but the point I was making is that it has happened, so there’s no point on dwelling on it. We have to move forwards, so think people should concentrate on that rather than moaning about what happened.

It was a cross party campaign – there is no single manifesto – they made no promises that you can reasonably expect them to honour – at most they are hopes.

It was sold to the public at large as more than hopes – vote out get your country back, get control of our borders back, more money for public services etc.

They weren’t sold to the average punter as mere hopes…

there is no single manifesto – they made no promises that you can reasonably expect them to honour – at most they are hopes.

Hence why it should never have been held. It is also the reason why it descended into name calling and dirty tactics.

They weren’t sold to the average punter as mere hopes…

Yes they were. The leave voters just chose not to see it that way.

It was only held to help Cameron win the last election because he was scared UKIP would mean a labour victory. There was never any principled reason for it. So we are now leaving the EU because Cameron wanted to be PM and win the last election.

This 🙁

Promised to appease a few disgruntled, spiteful right-wing gobshites.

Clearly not. The risks of what would happen if it failed were so high it was crazy. The problem is there was a lot already wrong with politics and the protest vote has hit the wrong target

Should the referendum even have been held?

Not unless legitimacy to vote was pre-determined by an IQ test.

Yes, and No,

No, because it should have never got this far, so, so many factors at play.

Firstly – 9/11, for a wonderful brief moment in time we had a bit of peace ‘the troubles’ and the Cold Waring ended and things were pretty rosy and optimistic – then the towers fell and human nature being what it is – a lot of people started to blame an entire religion and race for it. We (the West) could have said – this was the actions of a small number of horrible arseholes, but no we gave them what they wanted – we invaded Afghanistan and later Iraq and created a justifiable war between Arabs and Whites and Islam and The West – tension, racial distrust, fear.

7/7 really nailed it for Britain – the word ‘Immigrant’ goes super negative and almost interchangeable with ‘Arab’ or ‘Muslim’ – and we’ve be progressively getting more right wing ever since.

Credit Crunch and ‘great recession’ – fear of losing your job, fear of someone taking your job, The Pole who were welcomed with open arms pre-crash because they were cheap labour and actually turned up when they were supposed to were suddenly the enemy.

ISIS – chopping people’s heads of on the internet for maximum fear mongering, fighting what they believe is Western Imperialism after we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq caused so much fear in the UK, and the horrible attacks in Europe, poor Lee Rigby, brutally murdered in the street and his legacy being murdered by the far right.

Even now, when UKIP put of posters supposedly of economic migrants ‘coming over’ from Europe – they use pictures of brown faced people form the middle east – they mix Economic Migrates who the EU rules allow free movement, with Refugees from Syria and as-yet fictional terrorists mixed within their cranks to create the perfect bogey man – the scary ‘immigrant’.

At almost every step we gave the people who sought to hurt us exactly what they wanted and we gave the people who wanted to be part of us and help the common good a hard time for it.

If you add that to 30 years of successive Governments using ‘Brussels’ as a catch-all excuse for any bad news story (if you don’t have a coalition partner to hand) and the Murdoch press (who hate the EU for having a degree of control over him) and you’ve got what we’ve got here now.

Yes, only because the public demanded it, the relationship between the British People and the EU has become so toxic that most of us can’t be bothered to vote in the Euro Elections, the only people who did were the Kippers so our interest in the EU was being managed by people who want to kill it. We let it get so bad, this was the only inevitable results.

My only hope now I’ve come to terms with it, is that Bojo can mitigate the damage and broker a deal where we keep the bits most of the public either want or don’t care about (the economic stuff) and lose the bits it can no longer stomach the law making part – well for the time being at least – I feel that in years from now – we’ll all regret this, but probably not – they’ll just create another bogey man.

It was far too important and complicated to put to a referendum. I researched everything very carefully but did Keith from Mansfield who hates brown people? I suspect not. I voted last year for an MP to make difficult, informed decisions on my behalf. For them to wash their hands of it like this is a disgrace.

Like the Lib Dems in 2010 – if only this wasn’t a once in a lifetime decision and we could consign Leave to the electoral wilderness like the Lib Dems.

maxtorque – Member

the BBC just interviewed a Welsh lady, who when asked “you voted out, which seems odd considering that Wales is net positive in terms of EU spending” and she replied “well, yeah, but we are FREE now arn’t we”. er, Free from what? People giving you money?

Sadly, stupidity or ignorance are no bar to having a vote.

Referenda are really not the way to run a country like ours.

Appealing to the base emotions of the masses is what captures the votes. Few people genuinely want or are able to consider the facts.

I suspect that we will actually stay as EU members in all but name …and influence. Paying similar amounts of money to that which we do now, like Norway.

The EU will continue to be blamed for everything “punishing us because we left” , even though we won’t actually have “left” in any real sense.

The people in other EU nations will still think that we are a bunch of free-loading, uncultured, thuggish oiks -as they always have done.

Having any referendum is nonsensical. We have a democracy in which we vote in a government to run the country for 4 years. Despise them as you will but the average politician, PM or cabinet minister is far more intelligent than the average human being.

Quiet why then these people allowed a hugely complicated question to be decided by popular vote I have no idea.

Perhaps next we can build a space rocket by committee, or perform brain surgery by creating a facebook group of vaguely interested parties.

I pity the poor out voter I heard this morning who was now upset that Ibiza apparently was in Europe, used Euros and was now going to cost more this morning.

I would be truly amazed if more than a few percent of the Out vote actually understood the ramifications of their actions.

The Lib Dems didn’t win anything. They came third and never expected to be in a coalition and never claimed that they would be the power makers. They never sold a promise (sorry hope) to the electorate that they would solve all their earthly problems

They also held back the worst of Tory excess as can be seen by all the shit that’s been pushed through since.

(NB for openess I am a Lib Dem supporter).

I would be truly amazed if more than a few percent of the Out vote actually understood the ramifications of their actions.

One of the (very few) out voters I know watched the TV debates, read the Express and went with “gut feeling”, rather than rational thought.

Typical of many of the older generation I believe.

Yes we live in a democracy. I don’t like the result but thats life. Our politicians should have done a better job at explaining the benefits of being in the EU and not just banging on about the economy and business all the time.

I think we should have more referendum e.g. Assisted suicide, Trident

Is it really that surprising a result when so many people voted the tories in at the last election and far exceeding what the polls and general public thought was going to happen.

The Remain campaign should have concentrated on publishing the benefits of the EU that effect people every day, cheap flights, mobile phone roaming, flight delay compensation, animal welfare, funding of mountain bike trails, consumer protection, toy safety, etc Without this all of these benefits will disappear. Do we really think the UK government would ever bring in these types of consumer benefits. Not a bloody chance as there is not enough parliamentary time as it is so god knows how they would also get this legislation through.

woody74 – Member
The Remain campaign should have concentrated on publishing the benefits of the EU that effect people every day, cheap flights, mobile phone roaming, flight delay compensation, animal welfare, funding of mountain bike trails, consumer protection, toy safety, etc Without this all of these benefits will disappear

Sadly, it would have made very little difference.

Unfortunately, very few people take the time to come to a considered decision. Most people will quickly form an opinion (or had it drilled into them since birth) and will seize upon any perceived ‘justification’ for their opinion, ignoring/dismissing any evidence to the contrary.

Most people just coast through life without much deep thought about anything.

It was only held to help Cameron win the last election because he was scared UKIP would mean a labour victory. There was never any principled reason for it. So we are now leaving the EU because Cameron wanted to be PM and win the last election.

This. Time a gazillion.

No, there should never have been an effing referendum, and yes, OP, you are bloody right to question as you have in light of the conversation with your neighbour!

It was only held to help Cameron win the last election because he was scared UKIP would mean a labour victory. There was never any principled reason for it. So we are now leaving the EU because Cameron wanted to be PM and win the last election.

Agreed. What an idiotic thing to have done.

Of course people will vote with their hearts and not their heads. For every expert opinion there is a counter argument and few people have the time, energy and inclination to build a truly informed opinion or, worse, to know if what they’re being told is the truth. This is even more relevant in this referendum, since the leave option was quite simply an unknown that had no precedent to form any forecasts or modelling for the future.

It’s no different in a general election. How many people vote Labour based on pre-conceived ideas that left wing is best and vice versa? As a youngster I used to be a bit of a floating voter and manifesto reader, voting based on the promises in those manifestos. When those promises are not kept the informed decision becomes irrelevant and gut feeling takes over: what “feels” right?

With this in mind, the rose-tinted spectacle wearers got all nostalgic about a Great Britain that was never that great and thought going solo was the route back to that imagined nirvana.

Definitely feels like a political game of chicken that has gone horrifically wrong.

It was only held to help Cameron win the last election because he was scared UKIP would mean a labour victory.

What happens if the Tory’s get found out for having fiddled their expenses to win the last election?

Oooohh now you want an educated electorate !!

Do you mind if I just point out that the marginalising of huge swathes of the electorate for years – to the point where the only media they access is The Sun & Jeremy Kyle has spectacularly backfired.

Should never have a referendum on anything and yes it was 100% Cameron’s fault. He must have thought he would win and completely underestimated how the public would not understand the subject or just vote in protest of something else not even connected.

I don’t want an educated electorate but I don’t want complication sociopolitical and economic decision made by uneducated people…

Cameron was so out of touch that he thought he could get away with it. Pleb.

I think the vote should’ve only been for those who wanted out. Everyone else can stay home, but if you really think Britain should leave the EU then get out and vote ‘Yes’. No way there would’ve been a majority then.

No, it shouldn’t.

Franklin Roosevelt famously said:

Democracy cannot succeed unless those who express their choice are prepared to choose wisely. The real safeguard of democracy, therefore, is education.

A referendum removes that safeguard, as, unless a great deal of effort is taken to make the general public understand the FULL consequences, they are unable to choose wisely.

Politicians are elected by us and employed, full-time by the state to absorb those facts and make informed choices on the matters of government. A referendum should never be brought unless it’s directly against one’s own government.

Franklin Roosevelt famously said:

Democracy cannot succeed unless those who express their choice are prepared to choose wisely. The real safeguard of democracy, therefore, is education.
A referendum removes that safeguard, as, unless a great deal of effort is taken to make the general public understand the FULL consequences, they are unable to choose wisely.

Politicians are elected by us and employed, full-time by the state to absorb those facts and make informed choices on the matters of government. A referendum should never be brought unless it’s directly against one’s own government.

Well said.

FFS uneducated people are entitled to vote as anyone else.

The issues involved in this referendum should have been tackled previously. But it suited the Tories that they weren’t and Labour didn’t have the moral courage.

Correct ctk – it has happened move on and now be part of a successful solution rather bleating on as things might not have gone your way.