Having an argument with someone who insists that Shimano stuff of 25 years ago is far better than current stuff, like for like. Deore LX, in this case. I remain unconvinced, having been messing around with bikes for a similar amount of time.

You certainly get more engineering for your money nowadays, with disk brakes being included. You can now get a decent wheelset for £120 RRP which was about £60 in 1991 according to the internet.

what do they mean “like for like” – I can’t imagine anybody wanting to swap a current Deore groupset for a NoS one from 25 yrs ago

“thumbshifters for goalsposts. Isn’t it; wasn’t it ?”

In terms of product quality, they’ve never come close to this;

Jewel like quality, brilliant performance.

However, in terms of product performance, modern stuff is better.

I’ve still got one of those rear mechs on the go 😀

To my mind you get a modern equivalent at each given price point and that’s about it really, of course there’s some 25-30 year old parts still working, and no doubt someone will nurse their shiny new M9000 mech through the next three decades…

Longevity is more about the user than the parts most of the time…

Not sure single air forks, XT brakes or XT hubs are as reliable as the previous technology.

Only had experience of the hubs (freewheels) but they seem to be having few issues.

I’ve had Shimano for the majority of the last 25 years and reckon its much the same quality wise. It all lasts well and seems to work well. The DeoreLX died after 20 years of abuse – it literally fell apart mind half way through a retro race!

Not as old as the LX mentioned by others but I have an LX groupset fro. Just before it was replaced by slx and it if just fantastic. The shifters are beautiful to use and the RD is none shadow and the same as the older XT m760 one and and very crisp. The brakes may not be the most powerful but are again the same as earlier XT and have fantastic modulation. Not fashionable next to XT and slx so very underrated.

hmmmm I’m sure the budget derailleurs Tourney (think Altus is the lowest you can go to avoid plastic now) didn’t have plastic parts at pivot points going way back! Not sure what year they sneaked plastic in, did it coincide with black painted parts?

I realise most STW’ers wouldn’t tolerate groupsets below XTR, with derision for peasant bling Deore.

I realise most STW’ers wouldn’t tolerate groupsets below XTR, with derision for peasant bling Deore.

I think you would be very surprised…

I remember from about 02 until shadow mechs the rears were basically food for the rear wheel and evolved to take more spokes with them as revenge. That was when I switched to SRAM

Well they did say sram was easier to set up correctly due to its 1:1 cable pull at the time .

set up correctly

all set up properly just the design of the Shimano meant it was always ready to head into the spokes 😉 as the shadow revision showed

As for design and changes the Sram 11 mechs that now bounce vertically rather than across the cassette are a great step.

I had just got into mtbing and in my enthusiasm used to ride a lot through the heavy mud around Walton heath towards leatherhead and the north downs, often churned up a lot by the horses around there.

My first bike had LX on it but this didn’t last well, seals were good enough and the crankset was cheese like.

Found I had to go to XT levels for decent sealing and eventually went to middleburn for the crankset which was much better for resisting the mud – still got it and it’s still in reasonable nick.

So I would say Shimano stuff is better now.

I got my first mountain bike in 1986 with a Shimano 200GS groupset. Cheap and nasty looking but it worked quite well.

I’ve had loads of it ever since including XTR, and loads of SRAM of different levels, several Sachs groupsets, even some Suntour and Campag

Current Shimano?

Absolutely brilliant, both for the road bike and mountain bike

we’ve never had it so good 🙂

The performance from the affordable groupsets like 105 and SLX is simply staggering

Shimano have also really sorted out their road wheels, which really floundered for a few years

Always remember slack mechs on old shimano grouppos, not now

I remember having to fiddle with my cantilever Exage brakes quite a lot BITD.

But the current brakes are hardly fit and forget.

shhhhh dont tell my bikes that only shadow mechs actually work – they might stop working ….

didn’t say the others didn’t work but the pile of snapped ones, ripped off hangers and spokes tell a different story as to how well some of them worked.Of course YMMV but that was the experience of the people I was riding with

In terms of product quality, they’ve never come close to this

Why?

M730/2/5 XT gear was and is bombproof. I have loads of it still on the go and it never let me down. Same for early 90’s DX. M900 XTR is lovely too.

Saying that, the modern stuff is great as well and just as reliable.

CFH has it, performance and technology wise the modern stuff is incredible, but you can’t beat the robustness, reliability and longevity of a lot of stuff from the 80s and 90s, but then it was heavier, and clunkier…

A lot of it probably comes down to tolerances, 6/7/8 speed gear was chunky, robust and could work well even with a lot of wear, 9 speed is when things started to become a lot more reliant on everything being ‘just so’ as the tolerances and clearances became tighter. 10 speed was actually an improvement in terms of setup and adjustment but still reliant on everything being tickety-boo. You get a lot more leeway with the older stuff so it will clunk along nicely for a lot longer before the wear starts to become an issue, and al lot of the wear surfaces were bigger anyway.

I’m less than convinced, although in the 90’s I was using deore not XTR. Followed by the heady heights of XT 770, then back down to SLX/zee when I realized that actually it made naff all difference compared to spending the money on tyres and forks. My current setups are a mish mash of slightly older 10speed SLX and XT, can’t tell the difference between them, although the extra clicks and light action of XTR would be appreciated.

Plastic 9speed deore shifters certainly wasn’t a high point of reliability.

Just had rummage.
Currently in use, on bikes that get ridden:

8 speed 105 brifters – not perfect, need the odd double shift.
105 front mech, same age (mid 90’s?), perfect.
RSX brakes, same age.

LX front hub, 2001, perfect.
The rear hub’s due a rebuild.
Still using the shifters and front mech, spot on.

3 square taper bb’s.

XT shifters, crank and front mech, all about 10 years old.
SLX front brake, same age.

RS30 wheels, about 6 years old, abused beyond belief, still fine.

Not bad really.
🙂

Quality wise the mechs seem to be more durable than the 90’s versions, but the hubs have really gone off.

XT’s lasted forever, even the STX-RC I had on a hack bike, thrown through all sorts and very neglected lasted ages. Eventually the freehub went after about 6 years. replaced with a newer deore LX which lasted about 6 months for the freehub to go.

set of newer XT hubs, pitted after 6 months weekly use.

I had STX-RC. The hub had a simple metal ring seal. If it was immersed in water, it needed stripping down and re-greasing. Had a couple of freehub failures in the 2 years or so I had it.

Well certainly better than the old Positron rear mech I used to have.

I had STX-RC. The hub had a simple metal ring seal But it was missing the rubber seal

maybe?

STX-RC all had rubber seals as far as I remember, certainly never seen one without and I still have a rear one in good condition on Mrs A’s commuter

the more refined things have become (everything does work better and is generally lighter*) the more fragile they are. Shifters seem fine but BBs, pedals, freehubs, mechs all seem a bit shortlived nowadays.

Of course whether this is actually down to less material=less life or the fact that better kits means you ride more over rougher ground I dunno. (I certainly cover more miles than bitd. I’d guess it’s a bit of both. Altho, HT” are def not a patch on Sq taper for bearing life, same goes for hope xc vs pro2 evo hubs (and I think current fat axled xt hubs suffer similarly).

*cassettes are getting a bit portly

Pretty sure the old stuff was excellent quality but to be honest I would prefer to keep up with the times and use new stuff. The performance now is a lot better, it lasts just as long in every day use (if not a little longer) and is also usually lighter.

The performance now is a lot better, it lasts just as long in every day use (if not a little longer) and is also usually lighter.

better and lighter I think most would agree, some are just not convinced about the “lasts just as long” bit.

Use makes a big difference too of course. Got an ageing road bike (just realised it’s >10yo now) and, as I’m a fair weather roadie, kit on there tends to just keep on running (except the octalink BB obviously)

A lot of it probably comes down to tolerances,

And a bit of selective memory maybe.

I seem to remember I spent most of my riding time tweaking things back then …

Taken as a whole I think stuff is way better now.

There was a ‘chunkiness’ about the old stuff – build quality did appear more mechanically solid. However things didn’t seem to live very long. I was always messing with rear mechs and brakes.

STX-RC all had rubber seals as far as I remember

Hmm.. you might be right.. I think I am getting my first two bikes confused. The one without the rubber seals was possibly Exage, so cheaper kit.

Longevity?
HT BB’s from Hope have outlasted the frames they were in, of the 3 they have probably done 10 years between them with one bearing change in total. No other maintenance.

My last drive train did a solid 2 1/2 years of hard riding with just chain changes and a couple of jockey wheels.

I ride in all conditions and all year round.

None of it is Shimano. The older stuff I had was all 02 onwards, none of it would go near a current bike.

Try selling it to someone who knows which end of a hex key is the working end.

What DONK said.

They can juggle longevity, weight and cost however they want, but seem to be a bit light on the longevity these days.

Newer XT hubs seem to be a prime example.
The alloy axle ones are about 250 grams lighter than the old steel ones, but the freehubs seem to be a bit fragile.

I’ve gone for a Deore rear hub recently, but not sure about the sealing.
Fingers crossed about the freehub.

Big thread on the CUK website about this, BTW.
Apparantly you can still get the better sealed, steel axle XT hubs.

They can juggle longevity, weight and cost however they want, but seem to be a bit light on the longevity these days.

and heavy on the 11sp cassettes while not being cheap

and heavy on the 11sp cassettes while not being cheap

true but pointing out that an 11spd 11-42 cassette weighs more than a 11-32, bearing in mind its possible to drop the f mech and rings, and that this years xt is at or close to rrp while the last version is being discounted at ~50% rrp is a little unfair.

Hmm, we need to figure in VFM here too surely

1995 XT chainset, RRP £145 if I remember correctly

Current model – RRP £150-160

Taking inflation into account, that’s remarkable.

I do like Shimano hubs.
Slap a bit of grease in them now and then and they last forever.
Good value.

Even better, I think I’ve read the latest ones can be adjusted with an Allen key?
Death to the cone spanner!

I like Hope hubs too, had no issues with ours, but just don’t trust myself using brute force on beautiful, delicate things so have to pay someone else to change the bearings.
🙂