Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 52 total)
  • Shimano 10sp double set up help please :o)
  • PeterPoddy
    Free Member

    OK, all brand new drivetrain.
    Mechs/Chainset/Chain/Cassette is all M786 2013 XT, with double chainset and double specific front mech.
    The only thing out of place are the shifters which are the 3×10 SLX ones that were on CRC before Christmas. Still brand new though
    EVERYTHING is labelled ‘Dynasys’

    Rear is working perfectly.
    Front mech is set up, limit screws correct, no chain rub, parallel to chainrings and the correct distance form them according to that sticker you get on a new mech
    Problem is that the front shifter appears to be pulling too much cable. This manifests itself in a very baggy inner cable when in the inner ring, or if I tighten that up, it won’t shift into the big ring as the mech hits the limit screw before the shifter clicks into place. If I alter the high limit screw, the cage moves too far and the chain rubs.
    I’ve checked the cable routing into the mech on the Shimano tech docs, and I’m right, it’s sitting nicely in the groove under the screw.

    I’ve done exactly what I’m doing now with 9sp double (i.e. used positions 1 & 2 on the shifter and locked 3 out with the limit screws on the mech no problem at all)

    Ideas please? What’s going off?

    tmb467
    Free Member

    As you’ve bought a double specific front mech but are using a triple ring shifter, I’d guess that the problem is in the indexing

    Stick yer old triple front mech back on and set the limit screws

    Then buy a double specific front shifter and match it up to the new double front mech

    Shifter and mech need to work together

    khani
    Free Member

    Is its a double front crank and not a triple with a bash then its the shifter, the newer front shifters have a switch to change between double and triple,

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    PeterPoddy
    Free Member

    Here’s a pic of the cable routing round the mech

    Untitled by PeterPoddy, on Flickr

    That’s the only way it fits. It’s sitting nicely in the groove

    khani
    Free Member

    It’s the shifter, you need a newer one with the switch to work with a double front mech and cranks

    PeterPoddy
    Free Member

    switch to change between double and triple,

    Yes, I know. 🙂 But does that alter the cable pull ratio or simply lock out the 3rd position?
    I’ve changed a cable on one of those shifters and you can see a little thing pop out inside the shifter when you flick the switch, to stop the innards moving to the third position. Is that all it does? Does it change the cable pull ratio?

    Stick yer old triple front mech back on and set the limit screws

    Not possible without splitting a brand new chain, which I currently have no way of rejoining. Not gonna happen! Plus you’re ‘guessing’ 🙂

    khani
    Free Member

    I think it does change the ratio as well as locking out the third click, when you switch it a little cam type thing changes the pull inside…
    The khanibrain has a vague memory of reading this somewhere..sometime.. in the distant past..
    Maybe.. 😉

    Northwind
    Full Member

    FWIW, I had a 3×10 SLX shifter on a 2×10 setup, no bother at all. That was an X7 front, though, so it’s possible your front mech needs a different pull. It’d be a weird thing for Shimano to do though tbh.

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    I’m pretty sure that cable is wrong. My 2012 XT goes down the other side, under and into the clamp – has the circular bit got a groove around the back? I don’t ever remember a cable going over the limit screws.

    andyl
    Free Member

    surely all the switch does is limit the movement and is not going to change the pull ratio.

    Sounds more like you have a problem with the shifter and it’s double shifting. I’d check the cable is correctly routed through the shifter.

    cable route looks fine to me. moving it closer to the pivot would make the problem even worse.

    PeterPoddy
    Free Member

    It’d be a weird thing for Shimano to do though tbh.

    My thoughts entirely.

    I think it does change the ratio as well as locking out the third click

    This is what we need to find out, but is what I was thinking as I posted this thread! 🙂

    PeterPoddy
    Free Member

    I’m pretty sure that cable is wrong. My 2012 XT goes down the other side, under and into the clamp – has the circular bit got a groove around the back? I don’t ever remember a cable going over the limit screws.

    The cable is lying in the slot. It LOOKS correct if you look at the techdocs. I’ll spin it round 108 degrees and see…. hang on…..

    tmb467
    Free Member

    Based on earlier stw posts I can now confidently guess that it’s cable tension

    I might be guessing again 🙂

    The post in question said…

    (Slacken the cable tension until it shifts easily onto the “middle” ring with the limit stop where it needs to be to stop overshifting. Then adjust the lower limit to stop it dropping off the inner ring.
    It’s OK to limit the travel at the bottom of the range short of where the shifter puts it, because you just end up with a slack cable, but if you limit travel at the top of the range short of where the shifter wants to put it you end up with an over-tight cable and the problem you describe, so you need to slacken the cable a bit

    Guessing

    andyl
    Free Member

    try undoing the cable and check the shifter clicks up and down twice while you pull on the cable a bit.

    nick1962
    Free Member

    LBS 😉

    khani
    Free Member

    The cable routing looks right

    thejesmonddingo
    Full Member

    This
    http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/SI/Deore-XT/SI_5MY0A/SI-5MY0A-001-00-Eng_v1_m56577569830746329.pdf
    states that the double shifter is specific as it pulls a different amount of cable,so you need a new shifter,sorry(read top left corner)
    Ian

    br
    Free Member

    Have you the right number of spacers on the D/S BB?

    PeterPoddy
    Free Member

    The cable routing looks right

    It is. I just tried it the other way, no difference at all. Cable routing is correct. I’ve fallen foul of this before, and I’m wise to it. 🙂

    try undoing the cable and check the shifter clicks up and down twice while you pull on the cable a bit.

    I’m shifting between positions 1 & 2 on the shifter. 100% definitely. Shifter is working perfectly.

    PeterPoddy
    Free Member

    Have you the right number of spacers on the D/S BB?

    68mm shell, 2 spacers.
    I’ll check that though.

    khani
    Free Member

    I think you’ll need a newer type front shifter with a switch..
    I think the problem is its a double specific mech and crank where the rings are sat in between where the rings on a triple crank are when fitted, the inner ring is more outboard and the outer ring is more inboard, if that makes sense..

    thejesmonddingo
    Full Member

    Peter,read my post,and read the link,you need an up-to-date shifter as the cable pull is different.The first note in the general safety warnings box is quite clear,unless you have the switchable shifter you cannot get it to work.

    PeterPoddy
    Free Member

    you need an up-to-date shifter as the cable pull is different.

    I’m reading it! 🙂
    I can’t see where it says that tough!

    it does say

    The front derailleur is for double front chainwheels only. It cannot be used with triple front chainwheels, as the shifting points will not match.

    Which is nothing to do with shifter cable pull ratio.

    Or am I blind? Quite likely!

    Wibble89
    Free Member

    Cable is normally slack in granny gear, only tensioned in middle (and large if you have it) positions. Limit screws sort granny gear and cable tension sorts middle.

    andyl
    Free Member

    thejesmonddingo – Member
    This
    http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/SI/Deore-XT/SI_5MY0A/SI-5MY0A-001-00-Eng_v1_m56577569830746329.pdf
    states that the double shifter is specific as it pulls a different amount of cable,so you need a new shifter,sorry(read top left corner)
    Ian

    I’ve read it 5 times and I think it must be in a different language as I can’t see that written anywhere.

    PeterPoddy
    Free Member

    Cable is normally slack in granny gear

    Mate, do you have any idea how long I’ve been doing this? 🙂 I know…… But not THIS slack 🙂

    The front derailleur is for double front chainwheels only. It cannot be used with triple front chainwheels, as the shifting points will not match.

    I think that’s it, in code, isn’t it? 🙂

    EDIT

    I’ve read it 5 times and I think it must be in a different language as I can’t see that written anywhere.

    Thanks. Me neither!

    andyl
    Free Member

    pete, try setting it up to use positions 2 and 3 of the shifter and this will tell you if you have the correct pull ratio. Not sure if the shifter will release down to 1 without any tension on the cable anyway.

    buzz-lightyear
    Free Member

    Yr Bk Is Srzn lols!

    Nice 🙂

    andyl
    Free Member

    The front derailleur is for double front chainwheels only. It cannot be used with triple front chainwheels, as the shifting points will not match.

    which points out the obvious that you can’t use the double derailleur on the triple set up as the cage is the wrong profile.

    thejesmonddingo
    Full Member

    How do you interpret”the shifting points will not match” ?Obviously English must not be my first language any longer,I must use Gibberish in future,but good luck with your quest.

    andyl
    Free Member

    I don’t interpret that as pull ratio.

    Wibble89
    Free Member

    PP my 3x shifter works fine with my 2x mech but is has a full outer with only about 4cm exposed so may hide the baggy issue. Had a quick look and I get about 4mm cable length of slack.

    thejesmonddingo
    Full Member

    My bad,I look forward to hearing you’ve got it sorted.

    andyl
    Free Member

    if you look inside a shifter I seriously doubt the little switch changes the pull ratio. The cable passes through the cam and to change the ratio it would need to move inwards or outwards.

    Also if you read the instructions it states to flick the switch when in the middle position and not in the 1st position which indicates to me that it uses positions 2 and 3 for the shifting not 1 an 2 like Pete is using.

    maxtorque
    Full Member

    My 2×10 with 3×10 shift is exactly the same, i just leave the cable a bit baggy in the lower slot. At some point i’ll buy a 2×10 shifter and it will all be good, for now, it works so it’ll do!

    khani
    Free Member

    Also if you read the instructions it states to flick the switch when in the middle position and not in the 1st position which indicates to me that it uses positions 2 and 3 for the shifting not 1 an 2 like Pete is using.

    So it does change the ratio, it must be a different pull between 1-2 than 2-3, so if you set it up when it’s in two it should….. work..
    Maybe

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    I’ve got an anthem running an xt double chain set with an slx front derailleur (double too) but slx triple shifter, and it works fine. I’m running it on the inner and middle indices, with the outer stopped out, fwiw, and it shifts fine. Took some perseverance to set up with no rub, and there is a tiny bit on one extreme, don’t recall which,but easily bearable.

    One thing I did recall though is the set up instructions are different to how I remember them. I know you’ve installed dozens of derailleurs, just check you followed the manual in case it does makes a difference.

    PeterPoddy
    Free Member

    pete, try setting it up to use positions 2 and 3 of the shifter and this will tell you if you have the correct pull ratio.

    Good call. 🙂

    It works perfectly between 2 & 3. No slack, exacly right.

    Drop back to 1 & 2 and it’s all over the place again.

    So, if my logic is right, that means that the 1-2 shift requires a bigger cable pull than the 2-3 shift.
    And I KNOW that the XT shifters with the 2/3 position switch lock out position 1, as I’ve serviced one.

    So that’s it. The cable pull is correct, but I’m effectively using the middle and outer positions on the mech/chainrings, and that won’t work in the granny/middle position on the shifter.

    so this

    you need an up-to-date shifter as the cable pull is different

    Is sort of wrong, but sort of right at the same time 🙂

    Well done chaps, thanks! 😀

    PeterPoddy
    Free Member

    2 and 3 for the shifting not 1 an 2 like Pete is using.

    Crossed posts

    Yes, correct. That’s what I’ve just worked out. 🙂

Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 52 total)

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