not handcuffed to the corpse that is the EU

Jamba, I respect your position as an exiter and you’re not an unreasonable person, but all I tend to hear from exiters is soundbites like this.

I’ll try you because the OP won’t/can’t answer.

With recourse to facts and reasoned argument, not emotive soundbites or proven lies, what have the Brexiters won, and why is it better for the country?

And Dorothy Perkins. Do’h 45 seconds late

Un elected in Luxembourg? As opposed to the publicly elected PM we now have in number 10? Oh, wait……
Plan for us remains the same: moving into our new house by the end of the month, do the small amount of work that needs doing (with cash, not credit), then batten down the hatches and watch. I’m sure by then the ‘winners’ will have formulated a plan and be implementing it with panache 🙄

But Jamba; we’ve already established that your political knowledge is woefully blinkered at best, so you really, really aren’t the person to be commentating on what might or might not happen in the future.

“I am very optimistic for the future facing the world”

Se please explain, how, in an increasingly right-wing society, with social divisions widening every day, Brexit is going to be a good thing?

what have the Brexiters won

Apparently

NZ my point wouod be no one ever voted for Masstricht and Lisbon Treaties, we should have had a binding Referendum then as we’d have never been in this mess. The Dutch people have called time on their government deciding on their behalf, all treaties now require Referendum support.

@spawn that’s exactly how I see Remainers blind to the implosion which the EU is facing. As I posted on the otehr thread Remainers are looking at the short term and ignoring the medium and long term economic prospects of the EU

That’s an amusing assumption as i’ve been thinking long term since way before the referendum result and i’m verhermentaly remain

There’s a lot of short/medium term discusion at the moment because of the monumental f*cktardary of how this has all been handled. The long term benefits for leaving are now much longer in the future because of the short-term shit that’s been pooped right on to us

FT 250 is a better reflection of the domestic economy than the FT 100.

Remainers all seem to be a bit fixated on finance (national and personal). Maybe that’s the big difference, you needed to have a middle class mindset to vote remain. Greed being prioritised over principles.

Ha, good try but no. If that were true, this area (North Glasgow, a poor area) would’ve voted Leave. It didn’t, it voted strongly to remain in the EU.

What’s useful is that Philip Hammond has now clarified that the only way that Scotland can stay in the EU is by being independent. Theresa May saying she “loves the Union” is, well, nice but pointless – Scots don’t love her, so why should we listen?

There are people I know on bike trade forums who voted Leave – but ask them what they expect will be the benefits and it all gets very wishy-washy. “Take back control” but no idea what EU laws and regulations they really want to get rid of. Like much of the Leave vote in England, I think it’s more an anti-establishment reaction than anything, kicking out in any way they can without really thinking through the consequences. Understandable, really.

Greed being prioritised over principles.

Or perhaps just facts being prioritised over emotions?

As Arron Banks, founder of Leave.EU explained: “The remain campaign featured fact, fact, fact, fact, fact. It just doesn’t work. You have got to connect with people emotionally. It’s the Trump success.“ 😯

Money doesn’t enter into it. It’s all about people working together and going forward.
Celebrating what we have in common. These people are 22 miles away not some baying horde the other side of the Urals.
I’ve met some foreigners ,they were quite nice.

Clodhopper, we’re on the same side. If all the remainers do nothing (why would they) and the brexitards don’t do something (and given they don’t have a plan for anything yet) then we aren’t leaving…

Hence why I’m doing nothing.

I’m tired of it all, I’ll be honest, I’m resigned to tightening my belt, saving as much as I can, and in the most part trying to ignore the whole situation. It’s bloody ridiculous.

The leave voters I’ve spoken to have done nothing to dispel my beliefs about them, one, a close, well educated surveyor friend just keeps saying “we’re better off out, it’ll all be alright, it’ll be a rough couple of years, but it’ll all sort itself out, we’ll look back and wonder what all the fuss was about etc”. Nothing quantitative, nothing factual, not even any real opinion, just some misheld beliefs that what Nige and Boris said was true, and we can somehow function better outside of ‘the system’.

A friend’s brother, a mountain biker unfortunately, of whose intellect I had no prior knowledge stated to me last week that “we need to stop all these polish and eastern European immigrants, they’re all rapists, murderers and scroungers, they don’t contribute anything.” Right………. I couldn’t be arsed to tell him that of the 300 new houses/flats being built locally that I’m overseeing most of the private sales are going to Polish people, who clearly save well and are able to get mortgages. Scrounging bastards, buying houses, keeping people in work, how dare they.

Yesterday I had a conversation with some retired customers, asking if I was busy I told them we’re very busy, almost too busy in fact, there’s a lot of building going on, and lots in the pipeline, confidence seems to have come back and people are spending money, or at least were. The conversation shifted to the EU, the lady stated “we’re better off out, we can’t be any worse than it is, there’s nothing happening, it’ll be a chaotic year or two then it’ll settle down and all be fine”. No thought at all that all that building I’d just mentioned had arisen from a pre brexit (I bloody hate that term) economy, none at all, it was if she thought it was as a result of the leave vote. In any case, if we do leave the EU in the fashion it looks most likely, most of the drawbacks of EU membership without most of the benefits, I reckon she’ll be dead by the time it all sorts itself out. Still, she’ll live out her years on her pension in her fully paid for country cottage retirement house blissfully.

So there we are, my opinion of leavers is/was that they are made up of the ill-informed, elderly, mislead, racist/zenophobic, unintelligent, and plain ignorant members of society. So far I’m seeing little to counter that.

So many have said to me that they didn’t think it would actually happen, and they’d now vote differently, they were on the fence/undecided, but voted leave as it seemed right in their gut. It’s tragic that neither campaign actually educated or informed the populous, instead just spouting bullshit, they all should pay for that, whichever side they were on.

Edit: I forgot the builder/developer who said “We don’t wanna be ruled by Nazi’s, we didn’t fight two **** world wards to have them tell us what to do, we’re better off out, you should see the wounds my granddad had”. When I suggested it might make it harder to sell the houses he’s currently building it was shrugged off with no actual regard for how the economy work in the form of some grunts and swearing.

Also heard a guy on the radio this morning saying he thought it’d make house prices cheaper, helping your average Joe, but he hadn’t really considered that it might also be harder to get a mortgage.

Remainers all seem to be a bit fixated on finance (national and personal). Maybe that’s the big difference, you needed to have a middle class mindset to vote remain.

At least you tried on that one. Massive swing and a miss though

You realise this is all about finance? every bit of it. Doesn’t matter if you’re middle class or not, this affects every single person in the UK financially

Greed being prioritised over principles.

Please explain?
My principles were to vote for the option that afforded the most protection for everyone

Remainers all seem to be a bit fixated on finance (national and personal). Maybe that’s the big difference, you needed to have a middle class mindset to vote remain. Greed being prioritised over principles.

You can shove those principles up your arse…

what have the Brexiters won, and why is it better for the country?

Ability to determine our own future, the primacy of our democracy. This cannot be understated, the EU is totally unwieldy with 28 members all wanting their say.
Removing ourselves from a project to create a superstate of Europe (including creating and funding an EU Army), one which is most certainly not in our interests
Ability to look towards the dynamic regions of growth in the world without being held back by EU vested interests
Unshackled from the EU budget which will only have made increasing demands on us (we do face a risk of material increases in next 2-3 years unfortunately)
Ability to control immigration in terms of the quality of people we take, we can use this as a very positive tool in our trade discussions with India and China in particular.

@tom – we are leaving our Government is responsible for taking action. Artcile 50 will be triggered well before the 2020 election. Johnson, Davies and Fox’s appointments show May is serious about Brexit and she herself is extremely eurosceptic and imo only campaigned in a token fashion for Remain out of loyalty to Cameron.

Ability to determine our own future, the primacy of our democracy. This cannot be understated, the EU is totally unwieldy with 28 members all wanting their say.
Removing ourselves from a project to create a superstate of Europe (including creating and funding an EU Army), one which is most certainly not in our interests
Ability to look towards the dynamic regions of growth in the world without being held back by EU vested interests
Unshackled from the EU budget which will only have made increasing demands on us (we do face a risk of material increases in next 2-3 years unfortunately)
Ability to control immigration in terms of the quality of people we take, we can use this as a very positive tool in our trade discussions with India and China in particular.

Each of these claims would require examination. ie “our own future”? It would seem that our future is determined by a right-wing elite from the home counties, and that EU legislation afforded some protection to the workers, the poor and the vulnerable.

Anyway at least you had the decency to respond to my question with courtesy and reason. So thank you.

“Ability to determine our own future, the primacy of our democracy.”

So, handing more power to unelected elites.

“Removing ourselves from a project to create a superstate of Europe (including creating and funding an EU Army), one which is most certainly not in our interests”

An idea which came from a desire to not have to ever suffer the horrors of Nazism in Europe again, by pooling military resources and imposing restrictions and controls on potentially belligerent states. Given how much you bang on about ‘anti-Semitism (in the Labour party), and given the massive rise in far-right extremism across Europe, I’m really surprised at your views regarding this.

“Ability to look towards the dynamic regions of growth in the world without being held back by EU vested interests”

So leaving a powerful market with huge bargaining power, to fending for ourselves as an economicaly much weaker entity will help here?

“Unshackled from the EU budget which will only have made increasing demands on us “

A budget which actually benefitted many parts of the country, such as Cornwall and Wales, who will no longer receive such support.

“Ability to control immigration in terms of the quality of people we take”

‘Quality’ of people? WTF does that mean? And anyway; weren’t we actually getting some bloody good ‘quality’ people in anyway?

So, now that all your claims have effectively been countered, what else have you got?

Some thoughts from the bloke who has just been given the job to sort it all out:
David Davis

Johnson, Davies and Fox’s appointments show May is serious about Brexit and she herself is extremely eurosceptic

That’s one way of looking at it!

*Johnson-esque guffaw*

If she was serious about Brexit, she would be triggering article 50 now, and taking the job on herself, not saying to the brexitii ‘you want it, sort it’ where if they fail, she can shift the blame, saying she did all she could by appointing he most dedicated to the cause (if you believe bojo was eurosceptic, rather than just the other side of the Bulingdon club debate team to Cameron…)

we are leaving our Government is responsible for taking action.

-Boris Johnson & Nigel Farage

(Except it didn’t really pan out for Boris…)

I don’t get the hoohaar about this mystical “EU army”. Despite being mostly fictional, it actually sounds like an excellent idea to me; we only get involved in military actions in coalitions anyway (look what happened when we ignored everyone else, that went down well then didn’t it!), we’re always training together anyway and there is a huge benefit from consolidation in the armed forces – large projects such as ships and planes are almost always done multinationally anyway.

Sounds ideal to me.

**** off, no we don’t. I will make sure that I’m ok, you need to come up with a feasible proposal as to how this might work.

unfortunately this

The people who voted for brexit will be the hardest hit. I’ll be ok. In years gone by I would have felt sympathy for them. Now I no longer care if they have to sleep in the bed they shat in.

clodhopper – you did not ‘effectively counter’ jambalaya’s claims. You merely strung together a few words after each of his valid points. Your powers of reasoning are weak.

clodhopper – you did not ‘effectively counter’ jambalaya’s claims. You merely strung together a few words after each of his valid points. Your powers of reasoning are weak.

At least those two posters attempted a reasoned debate. All you seem to do is throw abuse around.

Where are your valid points thebees? Or are you just going to wait for someone else to do it for you (deva vue much?)

clodhopper – you did not ‘effectively counter’ jambalaya’s claims

No I did, and they’re not actually my own ideas tbh; mostly stuff worked out by people much cleverrer than me, so I can’t take credit I’m afraid.

“Your powers of reasoning are weak.”

You voted Leave, are gloating about Brexit, yet have so far offered absolutely nothing in the way of an idea of the next step, and you’re criticising my reasoning?

😆

At least clodhopper and jamba are prepared to debate it, thebees.

You seem to be here to ShhhhhhSh any Remainers just in case they turn out to be right.

Ability to determine our own future, the primacy of our democracy.

What, like not allow free movement of people AND maintain access to the single market? Ace, let’s see how that works out.

So TomW1967; you’d move from a country facing economic uncertainty but still with relative social stability, to one already mired in increasing economic failure, increasing inequality and social division, and increasing fear amongst it’s population? I suppose you’d be relatively wealthy, so could afford health insurance etc, but can you 100% guarantee your economic future in a rapidly changing global market?

Yes, we’re used to social uncertainty as my wife is foreign and Theresa May brought in the earning rules for marriage visas just as both of us finished university. As of yet, despite US citizens managing to kill each other on a fairly regular basis – they have yet to introduce financial requirements like ours – for spouses.

In the US, we can buy our way into being above the social divisions. For me, in science – and for my wife in finance, the US is simply a much better place to be. My career would pay almost three times more and if I go down the academic route – funding is better.

Remainers all seem to be a bit fixated on finance (national and personal). Maybe that’s the big difference, you needed to have a middle class mindset to vote remain. Greed being prioritised over principles.

I don’t think thebees understands. I can’t work out what this is supposed to mean, especially as I also read Jamba’s fact filled conjecture.

The people who voted for brexit will be the hardest hit. [/Quote]

Apart from the old people who will sit there securely until they die.

Remainers all seem to be a bit fixated on finance (national and personal). Maybe that’s the big difference, you needed to have a middle class mindset to vote remain. Greed being prioritised over principles.

I thought leavers were the greedy ones tbh, as they didn’t like all these foreigners taking their money.

Why should I give a **** about you and the working classes problems? You lot showed the world how greedy you are, why should we care about you?

“In the US, we can buy our way into being above the social divisions. For me, in science – and for my wife in finance, the US is simply a much better place to be. My career would pay almost three times more and if I go down the academic route – funding is better.”

So you’d enjoy security yet others around you would face increasing insecurity?

Not sure why you’d want to live in such a society. Sounds like my idea of hell.

I stated earlier what my protectionist Stat Egypt was going to be- doing a quick count up of investment that I won’t be making comes to over £400k this year that will not end up in other people’s pockets (and associated tax take)- now I am hardly what you would class as well off but I am typical of the economy’s “fuel” in as much as my net contribution is substantial – I am this country’s problem right now – no confidence

Thinking of replying to the OP..?

Yup, leavers convinced me that people are tribalistic self centered cock bags who are only out for themselves. The funny thing is though, it’s people like me and my wife who are best able to adapt to this new scenario.

Enjoy your brave new world.

I thought leavers were the greedy ones tbh, as they didn’t like all these foreigners taking their money.

Yeah! Like, err, Wales! And South Yorkshire!! Theiving foreigners!!!