Viewing 38 posts - 1 through 38 (of 38 total)
  • September 5th referendum debate…glimmer of hope or not?
  • zippykona
    Full Member

    May is banging on about Brexit happening. Surely the fact that this debate is going to happen most put an element of doubt to all proceedings.
    Someone on here put a post up that 70% of MPs are Remain that must mean a second vote is likely or am I just getting my hopes up?

    the-muffin-man
    Full Member

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    Yu arejust getting your hops up

    Its possible may has stitched up Boris and that she will delay things and she is just saying full speed ahead to win leaver votes.

    I still think there will be a slow tortured negotiation that drags for years , does not get what was promised – we all knew that even those making the promises- and a new deal put to the electorate again based on this EU or no immigration and no trade

    Which wins out who knows

    I think the likely hood of another vote on this or us leaving before the next election is pretty slim
    After that who knows

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    tomhoward
    Full Member

    who knows

    Jamby

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    False hope.

    The petition debates are not held in the main chamber just a side room which has no voting / legislative power.

    You should focus on supporting a party firmly committed to overtruning Brexit / re-joining the EU. At the moment there isn’t one.

    zippykona
    Full Member

    My mp is Chris I’m a **** Grayling who was a leaver.My borough was in favour of staying. I’ve emailed him to ask him to reflect the wishes of his borough. Let’s see what the expenses fiddler does.
    Did I mention he is a ****?

    maccruiskeen
    Full Member

    Surely the fact that this debate is going to happen most put an element of doubt to all proceedings.

    Its only a debate – it has to be done but its an empty excecise. The petition in relates to was launched after the terms of the referendum had been agreed and the it was underway. The time for action was before the event not after. But then much of the referendum process was arse about tit.

    I can’t foresee a second referendum to re-ask the question of the first one. The only referendum I can imagine is a choice between exist options.

    GrahamS
    Full Member

    I’m a bit nonplussed by that.

    The petition has been described/reported as a petition by disgruntled Remainers who are sore at the result and are calling for a second referendum.

    BUT…

    The petition was actually started by a Leave voter.

    And the wording of the petition is:

    “We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the remain or leave vote is less than 60% based a turnout less than 75% there should be another referendum.”

    Now I agree with that sentiment, but I also think that’s something that would need to have been done before the referendum, not after.

    The government response agrees:

    Moreover, the petition – which was opened on 25 May, well before the referendum – calls for the referendum rules to be changed. It is now too late for the rules to be changed retrospectively.

    I do think that it would be a good idea to debate and consider such a rule for future binary-choice referendums though, so hopefully they’ll discuss that on September 5th.

    maccruiskeen
    Full Member

    You should focus on supporting a party firmly committed to overtruning Brexit / re-joining the EU. At the moment there isn’t one.

    Yes there is – the Conservative Party is a Pro remain party for a start 🙂

    ferrals
    Free Member

    And the lib dems have stated that any future general election will be fought firmly with the aim of staying in Europe

    Part of me can’t see A50 being triggered pre the next general election so could be a viable stance.

    seosamh77
    Free Member

    it’s a debate with no vote attached to it, so no, don’t get your hopes up.

    Garry_Lager
    Full Member

    May is the worst person to have in charge for brexit, unfortunately. Steady, v competent, and has the imagination of a concrete post. All good qualities for a PM in quieter times (Teresa’s not going to be carrying a copy of The Constitution of Liberty around in her handbag, for example). But it’s clear listening to her that she sees Brexit as first and foremost an administrative challenge to be driven through. Like see that stack of papers in tray A – they need to be processed over to tray B by the end of the day. If we can do that we’ve done our job well.

    So I think the idea that she’s quietly calculating how to put the brakes on this idiocy, and has a vision of what is right for the country, is wishful thinking. She really doesn’t and will just get her head down and administrate.

    crankboy
    Free Member

    much as i wish the debate would achieve something i don’t think it will. The more interesting challenge is the legal one. Who constitutionally can take the steps to trigger article 50 the unelected PM using the unelected Monarch’s royal prerogative or the democratically elected house of commons and the appointed House of Lords. If article 50 is invoked by royal declaration what impact does this have on the Existing European enabling legislation who repeals that?

    My mate a constitutional lawyer is beavering away on this topic at the moment the summery of her work is ” xxxx knows.”

    thecaptain
    Free Member

    Having seen what a bit of a mess the first referendum was, I don’t think a second referendum is really a sensible suggestion. There are more important topics to debate, like what the plan is…

    allthegear
    Free Member

    A debate on September 5th? Hmm – let me guess – Article 50 served on September 4th then?

    Rachel

    no_eyed_deer
    Free Member

    I heard the new Chancellor Exchequer this morning on R4 trotting out a line about any dithering that extends Brexit ‘uncertainty’ is bad for the economy – I suspect that will become a stock line from now on to quash any Remain dissent from the rest of the country who don’t want this and are prepared to fight against it.

    Marin
    Free Member

    I voted remain. But as the vote was out that’s the way we should go.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    If anything putting the leave campaigners up there to answer a heap of difficult questions (well not that difficult just all the loss they pedalled) would do a lot. It may speed up calls for a ge which would put the eu at the top of the agenda.

    If anything though people will just look like idiots, when the leave director basically told a select committee they all lied as that was the only way to win it tells you what you need to know. Only the seriously deluded kool aid addicts are clinging to the leave banner now.

    craig5
    Full Member

    No chance, get over it

    allan23
    Free Member

    I would suggest it’s time to suck it up and make the best of the sh!te we’re in.

    Unless a political leader has the balls to go against the vote or there is a clear legal reason for it to be debated\challenged then that’s pretty much it.

    I sincerely hope that if anyone in Westminster ever suggests a Referendumb again, they are hogtied, ritually carried to the roof an catapulted into the Thames.

    If there’s one thing that seems apparent, a large proportion of the leave vote appears to have been supported by people who didn’t know what they were voting for and only seem to be able to talk about winning and not actually put any effort into turning winning into making it work.

    Also hope Plato was wrong for how a Democracy turns out.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    Marin +1

    zippykona
    Full Member

    We entered the Common Market in 73 and had a vote in 75 to see if we were still happy with the result.
    I see no reason not to check that the voters are still happy with their decision before we make such a huge decision.
    A lot of the promises that the Leave people voted for can’t be fulfilled ,they might feel short changed now.

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    In a shite situation so far, cards played well

    1. Make EU aware that the risk is very REAL – make them think hard
    2. Dont trigger A50 too early – let them make the first move
    3. Put the muppets in charge of the negotiations – scapegoats at the ready
    4. Keep mum (sorry, bad choice of word) and watch closely
    5. Remember Merkel (a) hates to hurry and (b) looks first to compromise

    fingers crossed….

    bainbrge
    Full Member

    THM I fear that you ascribe too much competence to our elected leaders and administration. I used to kid myself that whatever those idiots did, there was a Sir Humphrey or George Smiley in the background who would quietly and efficiently sort things out. I’m not so sure any more.

    DaRC_L
    Full Member

    #jambafact

    You should focus on supporting a party firmly committed to overtruning Brexit / re-joining the EU. At the moment there isn’t one.

    Lib-Dems have stated they are committed to overturning & fighting Brexit and if Brexit happens then re-joining the EU.

    SaxonRider
    Full Member

    This article on the complications of Brexit suggests that, no matter what happens, unless May and her government have a death-wish for the UK, the only way forward must be cautious and thoughtful.

    We have to hope for the best. 😕

    xcracer1
    Free Member

    The UK voted to leave, so leave we must. 52% of the population that voted cannot be ignored.

    GrahamS
    Full Member

    52% of the population that voted cannot be ignored.

    Unlike the other 48% that voted?

    pondo
    Full Member

    Lib-Dems have stated they are committed to overturning & fighting Brexit and if Brexit happens then re-joining the EU.

    Tell you what, if they’ve got the balls to go for that they just might get my vote.

    ferrals
    Free Member

    xcracer1 – Member

    The UK voted to leave, so leave we must. 52% of the population that voted cannot should not be ignored

    But there is no firm reason why they can’t be ignored. If on reflection Parliment decide a bit of short term civil unrest is better than the consequences of leaving then we won’t leave.

    zippykona
    Full Member

    The 52 voted for saving 350 million and reduced migration. They are not going to get that.
    They may now feel that the negatives of the EU now outweigh the positives of Brexit light.

    Aristotle
    Free Member

    It is good that there is going to be a debate, albeit in Westminster Hall, but it will rely on influential big-hitters speaking at it rather than just a handful of back-benchers having a punch-up.

    I don’t expect that it will result in a 2nd referendum, but it may contribute encouraging large numbers of MPs not to just blindly vote through the “Article 50” at the first opportunity if/when it comes to the Commons.

    My local MP, who is Labour, supported Remain, and who’s electorate voted clearly to Remain, is currently planning to vote it straight through.

    The current uncertainty may not be helping the economy, but much of the damage was done when the result came out and (slightly over half of) the troubled, argumentative relative at the periphery of the European family finally decide to tell everybody else to F*** off and that they were going to withdraw all of their savings (well, overdraft) and go on a drink, drugs, hookers and brawling bender in Vegas and sod the consequences. They’ve not actually gone yet, and they are having second thoughts, but do they keep saying that they will go.

    Sadly, very large numbers of the population would still vote to leave the EU even with the benefit of the hindsight of the past few weeks. It does not appear to have been a rational, forward-looking decision in many cases, although there may now be enough people regretting their vote to swing it in the Remain favour.

    Of course, such a divisive, almost 50:50 issue should never have been put to a winner-takes-all, binding(??) single vote referendum anyway. It was reckless in the extreme.

    The government might as well have just tossed a coin to determine the outcome…..

    aracer
    Free Member

    How about – and you should sit down for this as it’s quite a radical suggestion – they attempt to give the majority of the people who voted what they think they voted for. It’s impossible to do that for the vast majority of the 52%, but very easy for all of the 48%, hence it’s quite clear what action will result in more people being happy and what action will result in most people being disappointed.

    Aristotle
    Free Member

    DaRC_L – Member
    Lib-Dems have stated they are committed to overturning & fighting Brexit and if Brexit happens then re-joining the EU.

    They deserve to do far better anyway. Let Labour turn into the Socialist Workers Party and take the loonies with them and then the more considered, middle-England Labour voters can look to the Lib Dems.

    Proportional Representation -and an understanding of what coalition means- is what is required in the UK.

    Sadly, first-past-the-post strongly favours the Conservatives, especially given a strong SNP.

    DaRC_L
    Full Member

    Proportional Representation -and an understanding of what coalition means- is what is required in the UK.

    Personally reckon the Lib-Dems should ally themselves with SNP and Plaid Cymru to aim for a de-facto Proportional representation
    and commit to never going into governance with Cons/Lab who have parties massively divided on Brexit.

    Labour seems to be in massive denial about the strength of its Brexit supporters; either that or many labour voters just voted Brexit to stick it to Cameron/Conservatives/London/South East – which would mean the Brexit vote was invalid.

    Aristotle
    Free Member

    Labour voters appear to be (broadly) either

    a) “traditional” types who still live where they (or their forefathers) once laboured in mines or factories

    b) educated, relatively affluent, urban-dwelling, compassionate, conscientious types who may have descended from the traditional type, but are actually now a very long way from the other type.

    The second type are not now really a natural fit with Labour, who’s position and purpose appears to be causing confusion in the present day.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    many labour voters just voted Brexit to stick it to Cameron/Conservatives/London/South East – which would mean the Brexit vote was invalid they were **** stupid

    FTFY

    Aristotle
    Free Member

    Or just ignorant and desperate.

Viewing 38 posts - 1 through 38 (of 38 total)

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