fergal – Member

a lot of middle class do gooders with to much time on there hands whinging, how about adressing the real issues such as global warming, over population and dwindling resources!?

If I could address those issues just by not riding like a cock, I would. But that approach seems to be limited to not wrecking trails.

The bit most folk conveniently forget/ignore in discussions such as this, is the fact that their cars cause far more environmental damage with their polluting exhaust fumes (not to mention all the oil and stuff spilled on roads that ends up in streams and rivers and that) than a few mounting bikes do to a trail in theLakes or wherever. I just think it’s funny when people who’ve driven there to go for a ride/walk bang on about ‘erosion’, but fail to mention the scarring of the landscape and the damage to nature the roads they use to get to such places causes. Utterly hypocritical.

Get the picture? So stop whinging about a little bit of ‘erosion’ on a path or trail, cos look what you’ve caused.

Yes, you. With your ‘need’ to own a car. That’s your fault, that is.

Next time you see a child with asthma or respiratory problems, that’s also your fault.

I don’t own a car, so I’m off to burn some tyres to get my quota of planet damaging rights that I’m entitled to…

I’m afraid I’m sometimes a ride around rider. There were many areas hit hard by wet weather over the winter this year andt he chalky/gloopy main parts of the tracks have just been horrendous to ride through so you end up going around. I don’t like seeing badly corroded trails but if they get so bad they should be maintained or closed until better weather – designated dependant.

Elfin – do you live near Winchester?

No. Never have done, probbly never will do. Nice town though, fantastic cathedral. Went there once with WCA and his family. Was very cold and wet. It was once the capital of England, you know?

I’ve bin riding in Epping Forest for years now. Seen trails change course cos of boggy bits, and new stuff grow from the bits people went round. Nature adapts, and regenerates. The trails can get more wiggly because of this, and more fun. The Forest doesn’t suffer in the long run at all.

The dirty great roads running through it mess things up though. 🙁

Taff – Member

I don’t like seeing badly corroded trails but if they get so bad they should be maintained or closed until better weather – designated dependant.

Or perhaps riders could just ride in a responsible manner and take responsibility for their own actions rather than stating it someone else problem while making it worse

Or perhaps riders could just ride in a responsible manner and take responsibility for their own actions

Again again; you’re going on about minimal damage, compared with catastrophic damage cause by people’s selfishness with the ‘need’ to drive everywhere.

The trails will survive. Nature will repair itself. The ‘damage’ cause by heel and hoof and bike tyre is insignificant compared with that caused by car and vayn and lorry. Come on.

What’s the worst that can happen if people go round instead of through a few puddles, or rocky bits? Seriously? Come on… 🙄

Feel free to post up pics of erosion caused by walkers, horses or bikers that’s comparable to that scarring above…

Elfinsafety – Member

The bit most folk conveniently forget/ignore in discussions such as this, is the fact that their cars cause far more environmental damage with their polluting exhaust fumes (not to mention all the oil and stuff spilled on roads that ends up in streams and rivers and that) than a few mounting bikes do to a trail in theLakes or wherever.

Not at all- it’s 2 seperate issues. Or should we say “Well I drove here causing pollution so I might as well rip the arse out of the trail?” Lets drop a load of litter while we’re at it, and do some tagging, after all it’s a drop in the ocean compared to building a road. 😕

Not at all- it’s 2 seperate issues.

No it’s not. It’s all the same issue. It’s just convenient to separate things to hide yer own hypocrisy.

You know I’m right, too.

Poor troll tbh. Usually you’re quite good…

Nature adapts, and regenerates. The trails can get more wiggly because of this, and more fun. The Forest doesn’t suffer in the long run at all

this bit +1 (its discussing forests instead of where the OP is talking about but i still agree with it)

I’m afraid I’m sometimes a ride around rider. There were many areas hit hard by wet weather over the winter this year andt he chalky/gloopy main parts of the tracks have just been horrendous to ride through so you end up going around. I don’t like seeing badly corroded trails but if they get so bad they should be

I’ve bin riding in Epping Forest for years now. Seen trails change course cos of boggy bits, and new stuff grow from the bits people went round. Nature adapts, and regenerates. The trails can get more wiggly because of this, and more fun. The Forest doesn’t suffer in the long run at all.

This is where people are talking at cross purposes. Tandem Jemery you ride in Scotland the conditions and speed of regeneration are tottally different from the south.

I ride in the chilterns quite often and can totally see where both taff/elfnsaftey are coming from. Its not like if you ride through the centre of the puddle/mud you’ll hit hard ground you’ll just hit more sticky sticky mud (normally where the horses have churned it up over centuries) and come to a stop.

Every year its the same and every summer the clay/chalk ground will set hard in summer.

How do you get to Epping Forest Fred ? Quite a ride there and back isn’t it ?

This is the sort of thing Im on about at least. In the winter it just churns up no matter what you do. In the summer it will bake hard and be nicely ridable.

click here

and I think this is meant to be the same bridleway in the dry, at least I would nt be surprised if it is.
clickable

Yes, you. With your ‘need’ to own a car. That’s your fault, that is.

Next time you see a child with asthma or respiratory problems, that’s also your fault.

I don’t own a car,

Yeah Elfin, you tell them from your mud hut built in the middle of no where on your PC/laptop you’ve made from trees that have blown over (don’t want to have to cut one down) and stones that have been washed onto the shore by waves over hundreds of years, powered by your own mini wind turbine or human powered battery. What it must be like to be able to say i’ll ride my bike where i like, make my own paths and sod the countryside, i don’t own a car so i’ll get my moneys worth by possibly screwing up access to land for others by my selfish actions.

fantastic cathedral

Hope they feel guilty for having such a nice cathedral, think of all the carbon dioxide the builders exhaled while building it. No wonder the temperature of the planet has increased over the years sticking up buildings like that!!

Grow up. We have evolved and are now in a position where we should try and look after what we have so that it’ll last just that little bit longer. I’d like to think my kids will be able to ride tha paths i have rather than just showing them photos.

Skiprat, u need to get a life matey boy! Erosions always happened, always will wether it be man made or not, why all the **** do goodies think that its wrong! We were put on this earth to use it, an elfansafety got a good point! If yer that bothered about saving the earth think about REAL problems such as pollution! Bet u would’nt stop driving yer car would ya?

If yer that bothered about saving the earth think about REAL problems such as pollution!

I work for a waste company so already do my bit for the earth by recycling all the crap other people throw out. Therefore i can drive my car as fast and hard as i like and not have to worry about the planet!! I dont hug trees and think that nuclear power (despite Japan at the moment) is the future. Its not about that. I know that erosion happens both natural and man made, thats not the point. This whole thing is about a path thats say 3ft wide, people not riding on it and making it about 10ft wide plus. Its next to a nature reserve and if things keep going on as they are, the Peak police could just shut it.

someone shows a little bit of concern for their local area and loads of people mouth off and give them hassle… that really is a sorry state of affairs.

Elfin I wish I had the same amount of time to compose my posts as you do but I’m in a hurry so I’ll just have to settle for calling you a jumped up arrogant soapbox wielding holier than thou muppet who thinks far more of his own opinion than anyone else does. No doubt you will run straight to the mods and report me but unlike you I don’t need stw to feel like people listen to me.

Shaggmeister, are you actually saying you don’t care in the slightest about the longevity of the trails you ride? Typical shaggy response; ‘It wasn’t me’. IGMC.

I think the OP has actually raised an interesting and important question.

If you want to keep Cycle Access to these sort of areas long term, then I Think the only real solutions are to find a way of passing on the message about sticking to the trail without getting too “Preachey” MTBers are a pretty diverse group these days and while the message might sink it quite quickly with the 30-45 peaks pootler your 18-25 Dandy-horsist/IT manager, might need a different approach.
You need the majority onboard and understanding that the way we are percieved by other countryside users and the various organisations with an interest has a direct corelation to the levels of access MTBs are likely to get.

Getting regular local volunteer groups for trail maintenance organised (far easier said than done) is one way of sorting damage and being seen as a group to be taking the issue seriously and doing something about it, there’s simply not the funding sloshing about for public bodies to do it for us and it’s far easier for them to place a ban on bikes than facilitate access for a group that is generally seen to be doing more harm than good…

The fact is that bikes will cause a degree of damage, you can’t escape that, the amount of errosion and it’s impact may well vary between different environments, but if the long term goal is to open up access and have MTBers seen as a group who have a positive impact then I think the volunteer side of things needs to pick up and damage hotspots need to be addressed first by MTBers, before it gets to the point where Walkers, landowners and public bodies start trying to get us removed.

I’m not talking “Big Society” here, this is pure self interest, as a group we need to promote a bit more of a “Pro-active, Responsible Countryside usage” policy…

cooleaa, you’ve hit the nail square on the head with that post.

Tom, Hora would be proud

Comparisons with roads, cathedrals, open cast coal mines etc. are specious. All of these places have impact assessments carried out before they are built, and they are also viewed as having much greater benefits to society than the impacts they create. I don’t think anyone on here would argue that roads are basically useless things that exist only to provide a handful of middle class people with recreation.

In addition, a lot of the areas that suffer visible user damage from bikes are particularly special to a lot of people, either from a conservation point of view, or just for the way they look and feel. We need to start by acknowledging that, rather than just saying “f–k you, I’ll ride where I like”, otherwise we will continue to have restrictions imposed on us rather than discussed with us.

cooleaa, you’ve hit the nail square on the head with that post.

Tom, Hora would be proud

Cheers, but that’s just a few words on a forum, Following up with action is the trickier part.

That and making sure that the “MTBers as responsible, community minded types” paradigm is noticed by the right people, maybe not waiting with a shovel full of grit by a pot hole for a walker to come by as you tip it in, pat it down and Shout “Look I’m fixing the trail, I’m one of those Mountain bikers! We’re all really thoughtful you know!”

But maybe emailing the Peaks Authority for permission to carry out, and/or advice on trail maintenance and showing willing, it all helps massage opinions our way.

note my earlier comments on a peak pootle repair ride

Elfin I wish I had the same amount of time to compose my posts as you do but I’m in a hurry so I’ll just have to settle for calling you a jumped up arrogant soapbox wielding holier than thou muppet who thinks far more of his own opinion than anyone else does. No doubt you will run straight to the mods and report me but unlike you I don’t need stw to feel like people listen to me.

Shaggmeister, are you actually saying you don’t care in the slightest about the longevity of the trails you ride? Typical shaggy response; ‘It wasn’t me’. IGMC.

Your totally missing the point. No one is anti trail-maintance or riding sensibly they just think in the big scale of thing its not important.

As I mentioned before the question is are bothered about the damage riding is doing to the countryside or are you bothered about the damage riding is doing to “YOUR” trails and “YOUR” enjoyment of them. I think alot of people seem more bothered that the trails are becoming boring to ride rather than anything else.

I do obviously sympathise with the people who put in a lot of effort building the trails and would for instance never ride a trail before it opened. I heard a lot of people were riding the monkey trail at cannock before it opened which might explain why the trail filled with braking bumps so quickly, and I feel bad for the extra work the chase trails crew do in their time off.

But frankly I dont think the fact the trail is a foot wider and looks a mess is going to have more of an affect on the wildlife of the region than if it looks smart. Whats going to have an effect is the fact the hundreds of mtbers are riding past. I cant see that any type of riding in the country is a good thing for the countryside. But I am in no way suggesting access should be restricted. Its just one of thoose things we live on a small island with a lot of people.

Also the areas I ride are often forested and often have large scale forestry opperations going on when you see a forestry vehicles driving over the land it makes you feel that the actions of even a large number of MTBer is irrelevent. The other area I cycle ie chilterns tend to have a large number of horsey types and when you see the damage a horse can do to the trail again MTBing seems neither here nor there.

People who ride in straight line or go round puddles do create more work for the people who look after the trails (which is a reasonable complaint). The fact that they make the trails boring is neither here nor there and the people who are complain are just being selfish and bascially dont want begineers on their “LAND”. I just cant see riding in straight line and going round puddles has a detrimental effect on the countryside/wildlife in large parts of the country or at least most of area I ride in.

There obviously maybe special areas (ie tops of cairgorns) or even whole areas ie Scotland that are different but frankly everywhere south of the peak poor riding is neither here nor there, the countryside will recover. The fact that 40million people or what ever live in that area probably has alot more effect, which is what the picture of the M3 cutting was trying to suggest.

Mr agreeable, cookeaa, spot on.

Podge, probably the only thing hora and I have in common. At least I hope so…

scu98rkr

How on earth you think paths will all the soil washed away down to bedrock will “heal themselves” is beyond me

I love the use of “people who look after the trails” Thats right its not your need to be responsible – someone else will clear up your mess.

People who ride in straight line or go round puddles do create more work for the people who look after the trails (which is a reasonable complaint). The fact that they make the trails boring is neither here nor there and the people who are complain are just being selfish and bascially dont want begineers on their “LAND”.

Chipping holds on a climbing route makes that route easier for beginners, but is totally against the ethics and spirit of the sport.

That’s what cutting corners, creating pussy lines is equivalent to and we should likewise discourage it.

There is no bedrock its just mud. This is what Im on about, people are at cross purposes. See my pictures from above.

Did you read my post to the end, I said I know nothing about where you live ie Scotland.

That’s what cutting corners, creating pussy lines is equivalent to and we should likewise discourage it.

Im not saying we should try and discourage it but overall its neither here nor there when a couple of weeks later they decide to drive tonnes of logging equipment over the trail.

People are getting really annoyed with the posts above but not considering the area they are in.

Also climbing is nt equivalent the rocks take hundreds of years to weather and frequently climbing can spend this process up immensely. The sort of areas im on about change season by seasons never mind year by year.

Some real wilful ignorance on display here. Things like soil structure, vegetation, ground cover are all important, and people who think they can separate this from impact on wildlife need to do some reading, or even just talk to an ecologist for 5 minutes – how do you think ecosystems work?

Some of this country’s wildlife is robust and adaptable, some require really specific food sources and habitat types in order to live and breed. Unless we want to live in a country where the only wild animals are foxes and pigeons eating out of bins, we need to keep what little diversity we have left and protect delicate habitats that took thousands of years to form.

Going back to erosion, what you see time and time again as a mountain biker is trails that used to be 1 foot wide becoming five or ten times that width thanks to people riding off the trail, braiding the lines, and eventually going off to create a new trail somewhere else when they get bored with the rutted mess the original has become. None of this needs to happen.

And no, not all forests are clear cut every few years either… 🙄

Some real wilful ignorance on display here. Things like soil structure, vegetation, ground cover are all important, and people who think they can separate this from impact on wildlife need to do some reading, or even just talk to an ecologist for 5 minutes – how do you think ecosystems work?

I do agree with this why the real answer is there should be no MTBing. Surely the numbers of riders and the numbers of trails are more important than how they ride.

Im not saying any of these things listed above arent bad they are but surely have the creation of trails in the first place and the numbers of people using them makes such as bigger impact than anything else.

As I have stated before in my opinion if you really wanted to reduce the effect MTB has on the countryside. You’d be better off forcing the MTBer’s into several small areas around the country and allowing them to do what they want to them area (including riding in straight lines !) and allowing the rest of the countryside to continue as normal.

Im absolutely certain everytime I go for a night ride and my lights startle a deer/badger or even when I sneak off the trail to go for a wee (because some animal wont like the smell of it) I am doing more damage to the countryside than when I ride round a puddle.

I do agree with this why the real answer is there should be no MTBing.

Wrong. The real, practical answer is that you take more of an interest in where you ride, don’t lump “the countryside” into one big mass – some bits are clearly nicer and more valuable than others, but I doubt most MTBers know or care which ones – and try and minimise the impact.

Some of this country’s wildlife is robust and adaptable, some require really specific food sources and habitat types in order to live and breed. Unless we want to live in a country where the only wild animals are foxes and pigeons eating out of bins, we need to keep what little diversity we have left and protect delicate habitats that took thousands of years to form.

I don’t think there are any issues of mountain biking specifically affecting species diversity though are there?

Wrong. The real, practical answer is that you take more of an interest in where you ride, don’t lump “the countryside” into one big mass – some bits are clearly nicer and more valuable than others, but I doubt most MTBers know or care which ones – and try and minimise the impact.

Again I agree. I have said my posts dont apply to large areas of the countryside In fact I think Im the only person to have said that. Im not really sure how you can minimise the impact though except by not riding there.

Slowrider- who are u to tell me i don’t give a shit about the trails! The podge, tandem jeremy, your all being pathatic! Some of the best trails we have is through erosion! Erosion is something you will never be able to stop its part of life get over it! Your obviously blinded to whats really going on out there! Certain trails do need looking after i appreciate that, i do my bit of helping out from time to time , but its something you’ll never stop, what do u want from people!! Stop ya moaning!

Im absolutely certain everytime I go for a night ride and my lights startle a deer/badger or even when I sneak off the trail to go for a wee (because some animal wont like the smell of it) I am doing more damage to the countryside than when I ride round a puddle.

Really? I’m guessing startling deer and badgers with bike lights has very little effect on them and certainly won’t make they abandon habitat.

I never thought I’d do this but:

TJ +1

On a wider not – where do all these calls of hypocrisy, etc. come from?

The sane voices that I have heard have asked for responsible riding to try and limit (not stop) erosion and trail widening for aesthetic, ecological, access and ride quality reasons. Where many of the apparent “others don’t so why should I”, ” there is global warming to worry about so screw everything else” or “horses cause more damage so I don’t have to care” reasons come from I have no idea.

Interestingly those on the “don’t give a crap” side of the fence seem to assume that those advocating responsibility are as selfish as they are, hence the “you just don’t want your trails damaging, etc.” rather than realising that we are advocating responsibility nationwide, not just for the trails we ride on. 🙄

It would appear the STW is either infested by poor trollers or sociopaths. Either way I feel rather sickened by some of the comments on this thread. I can’t see those attitudes helping anyone or anything, anywhere, anyway, anytime.

I don’t think there are any issues of mountain biking specifically affecting species diversity though are there?

Don’t think it’s quite in the same league as deep sea fishing or cutting down a rain forest. 😉

However it’s stupid to pretend that your activity doesn’t have an impact, when in fact what you mean is it doesn’t have an impact that you’re aware of.

However it’s stupid to pretend that your activity doesn’t have an impact, when in fact what you mean is it doesn’t have an impact that you’re aware of.

I think I’m fairly happy that riding a bike along an already established path won’t have any impact on species diversity :o)

Interestingly those on the “don’t give a cr*p” side of the fence seem to assume that those advocating responsibility are as selfish as they are, hence the “you just don’t want your trails damaging, etc.” rather than realising that we are advocating responsibility nationwide, not just for the trails we ride on.

There is no-one on the “don’t give a cr*p” side of the fence. you are imagining that. I do “give a cr*p” but for the area of the country I live in, I think there are many things I could do which would help limit the impact of my mtbing. (ignoring giving up riding)

1. Dont drive to ride
2. Dont night ride
3. Only ride in “official” trail centre areas (in my case ride to swinley and only ride there in the day)
4. Dont encourage friends to take up MTBing
– as I think the numbers of MTBer are more important than the type of riding
– I brought a newbie riding on Sunday and no matter how many times I told him not to skid he kept doing it
5. Only ride on my own
6. Ride slowly
7. Ride through puddles

Theres just so much more I could do before I need to start thinking about whether I ride though puddles in my opinion.

(note if the area is stoney and Im wet I will ride through puddles. This weekend I went round about 5 puddles in two days riding. The very fact there were still puddles there in the SE after a month without raining suggested to me the trails was never going to dry out and frankly I was better widening it and going round.)

I think I’m fairly happy that riding a bike along an already established path won’t have any impact on species diversity :o)

Personally I think your wrong and agree with Mr.Agreeable, but my conclusions from his are different.

Personally I reckon what ever I do in the countryside will probably have a negative impact therefore it doesnt matter if I ride round puddles.