The real reason for all the flashing and gesturing was that they were courteously trying to draw it to your attention that you were in the wrong car and had forgot your BMW/Audi
😀

So what’s all this about coffeeking?
Are you also coyoteboy on here?

Some sort of test?

Out of interest. Would you have done this overtake if there had been a police car behind you?

the little old lady had no problems with the overtake, it was a guy coming opposite miles ahead.

TBH, I get this occasionally. There’s a road near me which is one of those that used to be a major thoroughfare until all the motorways and bypasses went up. It’s recently been dropped from NSL (60) to a 50mph zone, and apart from a couple of sketchy corners it was comfortably drivable at 60.

It’s also a hotbed for the 40mph monospeeders(*) so overtakes are commonplace. Many times I’ve overtaken someone doing 40 or less, on a big wide straight section of the road with no other vehicles in sight apart from an oncoming car on the distant horizon. When the approaching vehicle passes me, about a week after I’ve pulled back in and carried on my merry way, they give me the flashing lights / horn / waveyhands like I’m some lunatic.

Quite often, the person being overtaken will do likewise too. Now, I believe in making progress, but I don’t tailgate or carve people up. If there’s not plenty of time to do a manoeuvre, I’ll stay put. So the only objection these people can have is that overtaking is “wrong” somehow.

(* – thanks for that term, I’m adopting it)

I witnessed a near head-on collision recently caused by some impatient driver doing exactly what you did because the car in front of them left their signalling very late, started to move over just as the overtaking car was level with it forcing it into the path of the oncoming car.
That’s not caused by the overtaker strictly, that’s caused by a late signaller who didn’t check before signalling and manouvring. Not helped by the overtaker I admit

True, but in a white box situation it is wise to anticipate something like that happen just the same as when it is not wise to pull out of a junction just because someone is signalling their possible intention to turn left into it 💡
White boxes are generally there for a reason. The examples I gave are also all on wide roads which can and do facilitate 3 abreast but NOT advisable to do so at those junctions where white boxes are situated.

Your overtake approaching the brickworks was probably niave (sic). Little old lady may realise she’s going the wrong way and decide to turn in the entrance, or perhaps she’s going to pick up her son from work etc.

CK response;

You’ve mis-read again, the little old lady had no problems with the overtake, it was a guy coming opposite miles ahead. It’s not niave to expect people to operate reasonably on the road and drive accordingly.

I made this point too, but it got lost in the hinterlands of page two, and I suggested she may be taking a packed lunch to her son…

Perhaps the guy in the van anticipated that LOL (little Old Lady) might do exactly as above and was concerned that a) you would be forced onto his side of the road, or b) you might be involved in a collision with LOL which might then involve him.

And that’s why I reiterate that I’m very wary of overtaking anywhere near a junction of any kind. Really not having a go either – I wasn’t there.

“I witnessed a near head-on collision recently caused by some impatient driver doing exactly what you did because the car in front of them left their signalling very late, started to move over just as the overtaking car was level with it forcing it into the path of the oncoming car.”
That’s not caused by the overtaker strictly, that’s caused by a late signaller who didn’t check before signalling and manouvring. Not helped by the overtaker I admit

Assuming we’re talking about a similar situation to your hatchings overtake:
So what is the late signaller who wants to turn right supposed to do exactly when they’ve checked in the mirror and seen you coming? Stop in the main lane to let the overtaker past before pulling over into the right turn lane? Of course they shouldn’t pull over into the overtaker, but the overtaker hasn’t actually left them the option of what they should be able to do. If you think that incident is mainly the fault of the late signaller, then you really do need to re-examine your driving habits. The overtaker simply shouldn’t have been overtaking across the hatchings at a junction, and nor should you.

If the plod saw you overtaking across the hatchings through a right turn box, I’d be surprised if they didn’t pull you. You’d probably get away with a telling off, but I suspect careless driving would probably stick if they wanted to. For reasons given above, it’s really not at all clever – you’re risking lives (yours included) over your judgement about whether the little old lady is going to turn right.

…though back to ranting about other drivers being overtaken, the biggest issue I’ve had is with people driving in “queues”. Those further forward than you are clearly never going to overtake (you’ve sat behind past several decent opportunities), and the line of cars is too long for you to get past in one go. Hence it’s perfectly reasonable to go past in a few jumps. This really seems to wind people up who think you’re “jumping the queue”. Not only flashing of headlights, I’ve also had people closing up the gap I want to pull into – presumably they want to be involved in a crash. Idiots.

Those further forward than you are clearly never going to overtake (you’ve sat behind past several decent opportunities), and the line of cars is too long for you to get past in one go. Hence it’s perfectly reasonable to go past in a few jumps. This really seems to wind people up who think you’re “jumping the queue”

This bloody well winds me up! You ARE queue jumping!

Say the car just behind the obstacle is a granny or something. Well my car isn’t that fast so I need a fair bit of road to pass them both. So the first chance I get some F***ER comes burning up the outside saying “OUTTA MY WAY YOU PATHETIC CREATURES, THE BIG MAN IS COMING THROUGH!” and even though I waited my turn patiently it’s been taken from me and I’m condemned to wait behind the lorry for another 10 miles. Thank’s a f***ing bunch you selfish b**tard.

You are queue jumping, you are forcing your way past people who’ve been waiting patiently for a place they consider safe. Not just the people immediately behind but everyone way down the queue. Every time you jump the queue you are taking an opportinuty away from someone else.

Imagine if everyone was just forcing their way through willy nilly. There’d be total bedlam!

Do you force your way infront of people in the supermarket queue who’ve got more stuff than you? They’re going to be slow after all, and you’re fast fast fast MR ZOOMY PANTS! Yeah!

Can’t be arsed trawling through all 3 pages of this but getting back to the OP. Driving habits have changed dramatically over the last 10 years or so (for the worst)but I’m really struggling to see where Scotland, as an entire Nation, is differing markedly from anywhere else in the UK.

FWIW I’ve 35 yrs experience of driving all over the UK – at least 1.25m miles behind me.

So what is the late signaller who wants to turn right supposed to do exactly when they’ve checked in the mirror and seen you coming?

Abort the turn, carry straight on and look for an alternative route / safe place to turn round.

Sure, they’ll be unfairly inconvenienced, but it’ll stop the council having to buy a new “fifteen killed in three years” sign for the road.

This bloody well winds me up! You ARE queue jumping!

I don’t think it’s that black and white. There’s a difference between muscling through when other people are trying to overtake, and passing more than one car after you’ve been behind the same queue of cars for a for a fortnight and you’ve more chance of growing a second willy than any of them overtaking.

This bloody well winds me up! You ARE queue jumping!

Stop talking out of your backside.

Quite frankly I don’t care whether you’ve all waited for that one opportunity where you feel ‘safe’, I know where I can overtake safely and effortlessly – and will do.

Its funny though that I don’t see the same problem while on my motorbike commute, here they pretty much now move out of the way.

Quite frankly I don’t care

So it seems!

I know where I can overtake safely and effortlessly – and will do

At my expense?

I don’t think it’s that black and white.

No of course, you are quite right. I was being deliberately inflammatory, but it does wind me up when people barge through at others’ expense. If as you describe no-one is taking any of their chances then fine, but that’s often not the case. If a one-car opportunity comes along every so often, and someone is queue jumping, then they’ll take the opportunity that was rightfully mine and I have to wait.

That’s how queueing works, and it’s what nice people do.

It’s different with motorbikes since they can (or do) take opportunities that are simply not viable for cars.

Abort the turn, carry straight on and look for an alternative route / safe place to turn round.

Well yes, but they wouldn’t have to if there wasn’t somebody “overtaking perfectly safely” across the hatchings – who clearly isn’t actually at fault at all for the coming together. Clearly you should always use your mirrors and indicate before moving, but is it really that unreasonable for somebody to forget that when alongside some hatchings on which people aren’t supposed to overtake, hence there should be nobody in the way? Who’s fault is it if there’s a coming together – the person making a perfectly legitimate turn, or the one breaking the HC? It is of course always the overtaker’s responsibility to keep clear of vehicles they’re overtaking.

Let me get this straight – CK is advocating overtaking past junctions?

This bloody well winds me up! You ARE queue jumping!

Did you read what I wrote?

(you’ve sat behind past several decent opportunities)

There isn’t a queue – that would imply people waiting in turn to do something – there’s simply a line of cars who are all going to sit there like sheep. So much for me taking an opportunity from those in front – by them not trying to overtake at perfectly decent places they’re taking opportunities from me.

If you do have trouble overtaking, then what is wrong with me taking the opportunity to pass when you’re not going to? I’m wondering if you’re one of the ones who flash their lights and close the gap, as it sounds like you have that attitude.

Let me get this straight – CK is advocating overtaking past junctions?

Yep – read the OP.

Depends what you consider decent, doesn’t it?

If you do have trouble overtaking, then what is wrong with me taking the opportunity to pass when you’re not going to?

Because when you get to the front of the queue, you might steal an opportunity that I COULD have taken.

Not saying you are as guilty as the knobs I see on the roads but this DOES happen to me ALL THE SODDING TIME. And it’s not nice.

is this still running?
While youve all been sat here in a queue talking about this Ive sped round and read 10 other threads, bought 2 sets of Fox forks, and a load of drivetrain stuff off the classifieds and nearly bought a frame
Now that is irresponsible behaviour!

Some drivers have more confidence than others, some are very nervous, everyone feels a different speed is appropriate, we all read situations differently and most of all we all to some degree turn into selfish demons when inside the protection of a tin can and get very defensive over a particular bit of tarmac
Its human nature, its not good but accept that if you try to encroach on someone elses space, or do something that makes someone else think thats waht your doing when in a car situation you are likely to pee them off in some way. So move on (safely)

molgrips – Member
and you’re fast fast fast MR ZOOMY PANTS! Yeah!

Jealous Mr Prius? 😆

To be fair if there have been several safe opportunities to overtake and no one else has taken them, what are you supposed to do? Im all for being patient, but theres a limit. If I can pick a few of them off safely then I will. If I know there’s no chance of getting by, then I’ll pull back and chill.
Where I live pretty much ALL the roads a narrow 2 single carriageways (one stretch of dual carriaggeway about 1/2 mile long, of which 1/4 mile is NSL), so you have to learn to overtake, or you never get anywhere. Summer is worse with all the tourists dawdling about looking at the view (BUT NEVER STOP TO ACTUALLY LOOK AT IT FROM OUTSIDE OF THEIR CAR!)

yes, but they wouldn’t have to if there wasn’t somebody “overtaking perfectly safely” across the hatchings

Well, no, but my point was that whilst they were perhaps on the receiving end of someone else’s (potentially) ill-advised manoeuvre, there’s no reason at all why they *have* to doggedly complete their turn and make things worse.

I see this a lot where people have made mistakes, perhaps daydreaming on the motorway and realised that they’re about to miss their turn, or been in the wrong lane on a roundabout (unfamiliar roads perhaps) and make some wild dash across two lanes of traffic to get the their exit. Far easier, and safer, to go once round the roundabout and try again, or come off at the next motorway junction and double back.

Granted yes, you shouldn’t have to, especially if it’s someone else’s actions that have put you in an unfavourable position, however I think that having the wherewithall to change your mind is preferable to causing a multi-vehicle pile-up.

Clearly you should always use your mirrors and indicate before moving, but is it really that unreasonable for somebody to forget that when alongside some hatchings on which people aren’t supposed to overtake, hence there should be nobody in the way? Who’s fault is it if there’s a coming together

In honesty, neither are blameless. The overtaker is doing something which, whilst not directly illegal, is ill-advised and potentially “careless” or one of those other weasel words that we like to apply to generic driving offences. He’s relying on indicators to determine the actions of other drivers, which is a driving-lesson basic mistake. The overtakee, on the other hand, shouldn’t be changing lanes without checking mirrors and blind spots just in case (motorcyclists call this last moment belt-and-braces check the “lifesaver,” can you guess why?)

When you get two people who are both doing something that perhaps isn’t “best practice,” you get (as you so eloquently put it 🙂 ) a coming together.

but it’s a definite obvious “thing” around here wherever I’m driving. Maybe it’s regional because I’m an aggressive driver.

FTFY

Maybe you need a decent automatic gearbox to chill your driving style out a bit CK.. stop you treating the world like a racetrack..?

I see this a lot where people have made mistakes, perhaps daydreaming on the motorway and realised that they’re about to miss their turn

I had this last night on the A50. Had driven for nearly 6 hours all the way from mid Scotland nicely sat at 70 most of the way then a mile from home approaching the turn off there is a lorry ahead so I pull in nice and early and sit behind the lorry, white van man comes hurtling alongside, realises at very last minute (50 yards probably) he cant get ahead of the lorry and still make the exit so gets his nose infront of me and swerves across into the non existant gap between me and lorry, hard on his brakes at the same time
I had no option but go into the back of him or swerve into the outside lane, which I managed to do, before getting back (across the hatchings by this point)to make the exit
By the end of the sliproad he is behind me again right up my rear flashing his lights and alternatevely flashing his fogs as if trying to mimic the lights on a police van
I just ignored him but he followed me all the way home an inch from my bumper
Wouldnt have minded but the route he went he could have taken the next exit off the A50 onto the A38 and got to the same place, probably quicker I guess though he was for some reason just looking to pick a fight with someone
Wasnt really what I needed after a tiring 6 hour drive

Jealous Mr Prius?

What, like I couldn’t have afforded a fast car or something?

To be fair if there have been several safe opportunities to overtake and no one else has taken them, what are you supposed to do?

The thing is, the person at the head of the queue might not want to overtake, fine – but it’s the people behind them whose chances you are stealing.

If you ask me you have to be absolutely sure that people are NOT ever going to overtake in order to pass them all. Also bearing in mind that some people’s idea of ‘safe’ is not the same as others.

Where I live pretty much ALL the roads a narrow 2 single carriageways

I grew up in Herefordshire which is about as rural as it gets in England. And yes you did have to learn to overtake, but you also had to learn to MTFU and take it on the chin, rather than risk your life. Which lots of people did and didn’t always win.

Perhaps the guy in the van anticipated that LOL (little Old Lady) might do exactly as above and was concerned that a) you would be forced onto his side of the road, or b) you might be involved in a collision with LOL which might then involve him.

Valid point, but I was already past the little old lady and back in by the time I passed the junction itself. I’d guestimate I was back in by about half way along the right turn section. If she had been intending to turn right she would have been unlikely to have been accelerating (slowly) as I passed her in the first hatched section and sticking far left. You have to be there to get a handle on it, but I accept that passing her there could be considered a tad questionable, fair point. The number of vehicles entering the brick yard per day is in single figures, I’ve driven that road several times a day for years and only ever once seen a car/wagon turning in, so in my estimation the risks are minimal. I’ll review my thoughts on that location next time I overtake. However there’s still no need for the van coming the other way to get upset – there was at no point any danger to him and I was sufficiently distant from him that even if I’d spun out and buried myself in a wall on his side of the road, or hit a wagon coming from the yard, he’d have been able to stop quite happily.

Let me get this straight – CK is advocating overtaking past junctions?

In this instance, yes I suppose so, but possibly wrongly I accept. Not in all instances, but past a little-used side entrance on a road with sufficient extra lane space and (IMO) almost zero chance of the overtaken car turning into the junction and zero chance of one coming out of the junction without being seen WAY in advance. We all take some level of risk when doing anything, IMO this one was acceptable based on the conditions and visibility at the time.

This bloody well winds me up! You ARE queue jumping!

Say the car just behind the obstacle is a granny or something. Well my car isn’t that fast so I need a fair bit of road to pass them both. So the first chance I get some F***ER comes burning up the outside saying “OUTTA MY WAY YOU PATHETIC CREATURES, THE BIG MAN IS COMING THROUGH!” and even though I waited my turn patiently it’s been taken from me and I’m condemned to wait behind the lorry for another 10 miles. Thank’s a f***ing bunch you selfish b**tard.

You are queue jumping, you are forcing your way past people who’ve been waiting patiently for a place they consider safe. Not just the people immediately behind but everyone way down the queue. Every time you jump the queue you are taking an opportinuty away from someone else.

If you missed the earlier opportunities it’s your own fault, you’re further forward so it’s easier for you to overtake and you should leave sufficient distance in front of you to allow you to pass at speed. If the person/people behind you thought it was safe to overtake and you didn’t it’s possible you’re just a moron (or uber nervous )that sits in a queue forever until the obstacle turns off. If you are uber nervous then maybe it’s best you didn’t overtake and stay in the queue.

In this instance I rarely overtake to be honest, but I do think it’s OK to do so providing there’s a safe place to pull in and you don’t have to barge into a space a car and a halfs length long 🙂

Funny, just the same discussion somewhere else:

click

What a load of old rubbish.

Firstly if you are driving a Prius you have automatically labelled yourself as not wanting to overtake so do everyone a favour and pull as far over to the kerb as you can so we can have a better view to overtake, oh and whilst you’re at it, leave a bigger gap in front so that if we need to we can pull in and overtake in a couple of attempts, makes it safer for us. Talk about selfish.

If there is a queue of cars behind a slow moving vehicle this does NOT mean you have taken a ticket to stay in line and overtake once everyone else in front of you has. That never happens and the reason there is a line in the first place means that at least the first 2 – 3 drivers have no intention of overtaking.

To the post about overtaking cars when approaching junctions – are you insane?!? How can you safely see if a car is indicating to turn or not, or if the car has just flashed someone else to pull out of a side road.

molgrips – Member
I grew up in Herefordshire which is about as rural as it gets in England.

I’ll see your Hertfodshire and raise you the Isle of Wight!

but you also had to learn to MTFU and take it on the chin, rather than risk your life. Which lots of people did and didn’t always win.

Didnt I say that?

If I know there’s no chance of getting by, then I’ll pull back and chill.

If you missed the earlier opportunities it’s your own fault,

No it’s not. One man’s opportunity is another man’s risky manoeuvre. I’m not objecting to people overtaking when I can’t or won’t, what I am objecting to is other people stealing my spot because they are infront of me in a place I could’ve gone.

Seems like queue jumpers don’t think about other people much – big surprise..

If there is a queue of cars behind a slow moving vehicle this does NOT mean you have taken a ticket to stay in line and overtake once everyone else in front of you has

Within reason, yes it does I’m afraid.

That never happens

Yes it does. I guess you never hung around to find out how nice polite people behave 🙂 Cherish those few extra minutes, I hope they’re worth being a c**t for wherever you are going.

Firstly if you are driving a Prius you have automatically labelled yourself as not wanting to overtake

Wtf? You are surely trolling, I will not bite.

Within reason, yes it does I’m afraid.

Wrong wrong wrong unfortunately. Unless I have missed the tickets being handed out by the drivers of slow moving vehicles? Is it one of those ticket dispenser things that you get at the deli in the supermarkets and when the driver of the slow vehicle sees a 10 mile straight piece of road which they deem low risk to overtake they shout out your number and you are allowed to pass?

If you have bought a Prius it pretty much says that you don’t care about

1. Style
2. The environment
3. Getting anywhere fast
4. Anyone else on the road who feels sick everytime they see one.

Good job on jumping on the bandwagon though. 10/10.

I just ignored him but he followed me all the way home an inch from my bumper

I think if it were me in that situation, he’d have followed me all the way to the local Police Station.

Wrong wrong wrong unfortunately. Unless I have missed the tickets being handed out by the drivers of slow moving vehicles?

Well the same way that they don’t hand out tickets at supermarket checkouts, at petrols stations or anywhere else where there’s a queue. It’s what nice people do.

If you have bought a Prius it pretty much says..

You total tw*t.

Do you know I almost always drive the Passat?

Do you know I almost always drive the Passat?

LOL – have you got a sticker in the back of the Prius saying

“My other car is a Passat”.

😀

I’ve nothing against them personally, but if you’ve got a Prius with a sticker saying “my other car is $anything,” haven’t you missed the point of having a Prius?

The thing is, the person at the head of the queue might not want to overtake, fine – but it’s the people behind them whose chances you are stealing.

Oh, you do talk some drivel sometimes! 🙂

If I can overtake you, and the car you’re waiting behind, then tough luck sunshine, that’s your look out, because you’re not on the ball and I am. You’ve missed your chance 🙂

I’ve done it loads of times (OK, I’ve had the practice on motorbikes, so it comes easy) but I’ve been 4th or 5th in the queue, spotted a gap from waaaay back, pulled out for what I term a ‘speculative overtake’ (i.e. Lets see how many I can pass in one go, I can always pull back in again) and surprisingly gone hammering past the lot of ’em. And I’ve never had a fast car. Last time I can recall was about 3 cars and a truck on the A32 from Alton to Gosport in our 1.6 Focus Estate. The only thing I don’t do is look at the speedo. 100% concentration on the job in hand. Just thrash the knackers off it until I’m past.

Time after time I see people making the same mistake when trying to overtake: Too close to the car in front, and bobbing in and out trying to see past.

I’ll sit back. Maybe 100 yards or more if necessary. If I can’t see I won’t go, and from a long way back you can see both sides of the target vehicle. When a corner comes up, I accelerate (yes, go faster) so as we come out of the corner, I’m already going faster than the vehicle in front, and catching them. This has the effect of being able to overtake on seemingly short clear sections very easily, because I’ve planned it before you’ve got there (and you don’t need prior knowledge of the road either) If it’s not clear, I back off and drop back again. There’s more to it than that (road position, observation, etc) but time after time I pass people who have no clue it’s even possible. And it’s easy, very easy. 🙂

it’s easy, very easy.

It is, and it’s incredibly rare in my experience. It’s refreshing to see people who can actually overtake effectively, most people just sit on the bumper of the car in front, then pull out and try to pass fractionally faster than the vehicle in front.

the person at the head of the queue might not want to overtake

Often, I find that these people really don’t want to be overtaken either. They’ll follow a tractor doing 15mph to the moon and back, but six inches behind it with their wheels on the centre line so no-one else can get past.

It is, and it’s incredibly rare in my experience.

Errr, ummm, I see what you’re saying there, yes.

I spend most of my time on motorways bored out of my skull, so if I hit the back roads I’m looking for it. The MiL lives in Gosport, so we drive the A32 a lot to visit, and it’s rare I do the drive and don’t make 2-3 overtakes of some sort. And I’ve been practising it so long now, the ‘planning overtake before corner’ thing is second nature. It’s IAM stuff, they expect you to make progress, and at least demonstrate you’re looking for the overtakes regularly, if you see what I mean 🙂

Interesting thread.

Coffeeking, you mention having driven with IAM passengers.. have you considered taking the test?

(and everyone else who’s commented who hasn’t!) remarkable value at £139..

The IAM

I’ve not looked at the pics but see SBZ has and would be inclined to agree with his comments.

The most important question before any overtake these days is what have I to gain, what have I to lose?

Closing differential speeds mean there’s less opportunity, not always overcome by ‘more powerful’ cars.

That said I’ve possibly got some sympathy, I’ve seen numerous drivers take offence at completely safe and reasonable overtakes.