Getting a little confused although have only done some cursory googling.

Abellio wishing to run more driver only trains, i.e. no conductor/guard to open doors.

RMT say this is dangerous and are striking to prevent it happening.

Abellio say numerous trains already running safely like this (which I believe is true having seen it myself).

RMT worried about creeping automation and (I imagine) job losses which is reasonable but surely inevitable.

Abellio say they will guarantee all current roles and salaries, rendering moot (my imagined) concern of RMT re: job losses.

Seems like RMT are being hugely unreasonable here but I don’t think I’m getting the full picture.

More to the point that’s been a strike virtually every. single. weekend. I’ve tried to take a train somewhere 👿

Driver only’s pretty contentious because it’s basically a problem approached from 2 different places. Traditionally yep your guard/ticket collector/train manager was a business critical thing, you physically needed mobile staff to operate the train and to collect revenue so there was no question they had to be there. Automation and infrastructure- ticket only platforms, stations designed so the driver can see the whole train etc- has overruled that. So that’s one of the reasons gone and it’s the one train companies have mostly been thinking about til now.

But it’s not the only reason to have staff on trains. Traveller safety is just undisputably better with staff in the train not tied to the driver’s seat- the driver can’t monitor the passenger areas, deal with disruption etc, and you can’t just stop a train to deal with it even if you know about it. In the event of an emergency- whether it’s a violent passenger, a medical emergency, or a crash- nobody at all believes DOO is as good as the alternative. Drivers are also rightly worried about isolation- what if it’s them that has the emergency? Trains will auto-stop so it’s not catastrophic any more but there’s nobody on hand to deal or help or manage the train.

There’s a lot more to it than that but as a passenger I’d rather have 2 dudes than 1 running the train.

Fair points all, can see how it would definitely be worse for the passenger to have driver only.

Hadn’t seen any of the above points put forward by RMT though? Maybe just hadn’t googled enough…

I think traveller safety is a big concern, sure CCTV can help after the event.

But – I thought some of the dispute was over the status of the man checking the doors – that is a guard status task, not ticket collector necessarily – and that there would be two man crews, however the driver has responsibility for doors, and the ticket collector was simply that..

But – we try to use public transport as much as possible, especially for longer journeys to Central Belt, often at the weekend, and am getting a bit peeved at the effect.. to say nothing of how this affects tourists and the like, what do they think? can’t be good. and as for seat reservations – as often as not, there are none, resulting in a stressful free-for-all, some sit where they please, some insist on sitting in ‘their’ seat – chaos. Bah.

So people are worried about demotion from ‘guard’ to ‘ticket collector’?

I notice the trains on the East Coast services have digital reservations but can’t see them coming to the Scotrail fleet anytime soon, would require some fairly major refurbishment I think.

They should, however, employ someone on the West Highland Line to point out which coaches go to Oban and which to Fort William and Mallaig, seems to cause endless panic every weekend when people are boarding at Queen St 😀

That and the one from Perth to Inverness and on to Elgin, Sunday pm, there are two trains banged together, so two coach As and so on, always end up on the wrong one – usually with a bike – and have to hot foot round to the other train in double quick time..

There’s a lot more to it than that but as a passenger I’d rather have 2 dudes than 1 running the train.

Local Southern Trains services have been —-ed by the strikes over something similar and Southern are just planning to change the conductor role to a service crew role as kcal says, so there would be 2 people on the train still. The dispute appears to be simply over who / how doors are shut, job descriptions maybe, and the result is that well-used, over-crowded train services have been cancelled indefinately and the other options are now even more crowded. It’s a mess.

The strike is just daft. One of our regular conductors isn’t in the RMT & he says its just ridiculous. As he says all that’s going to happen is the driver opens the doors now & the conductor still keeps collecting/checking tickets. The train will still have 3 staff (Inc trolley guy/gal)

It’s getting very tiresome & not winning the conductors any friends. Not to mention that Shitrail always cancel services north of Aberdeen to guarantee that the central belt keeps theirs running. Obviously my extortionate season ticket is worth less than one in Glasgow or Edinburgh.

And our trains (Borders) railway are been cancelled as they’ve too few staff – which is probably due to them only training 7 new drivers for the railway, as they only needed 7.

Eh, what happens when one is on sick/away etc? Train cancelled.

It takes upwards of a year to train a new driver…

Safety issue with the driver pressing the open/close button?

They should look on the bright side… driverless trains may exist and work well on DLR, but it’s a while before they’ll be the norm on other lines.

Strangely, the Germans are just working on that now, despite the original DLR trains being German 😉

There were 2 reasons I bought a car…
1. RMT
2. Jimmy Knapp

I swear back in the 90’s they went on strike just for the sake of it, and royally cheesed off customers when they thought customers would side with them just by using the “safety” word.

Ah, now I know this one, a lot of the trains being cancelled ‘due to a staff shortage’ are because previously (under First) a lot of rota gaps were covered by staff volunteering for extra shifts (and presumably being paid overtime).

Apparently Abellio have tried to change this so that staff were obliged to cover extra shifts, as opposed to the previously voluntary system. There may also have been a change in the pay structure. Either way the staff refused to sign up to mandatory extra shifts and by way of protest are now refusing to volunteer for extra shifts. Hence ‘a staff shortage’.

I don’t claim to know the ins and outs but seems like Abellio rather clumsily upset a system which was slightly precarious in the first place…

I seem to recall there was even some form of solidarity protest with a member of staff being sacked for badmouthing Abellio on a train somewhere, but it seems daft that so many would forfeit extra shifts and pay just for that.

One solution could be to crowd-source the train staff?

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKKADFIEX84[/video]

jameso – Member

Local Southern Trains services have been —-ed by the strikes over something similar and Southern are just planning to change the conductor role to a service crew role as kcal says, so there would be 2 people on the train still.

Scotrail have offered assurances that there will be 2 people on the trains, but have refused to say what those staff will be, what level of training will be in place, and refused to comment when asked if it includes catering etc. To me this smells of deskilling- if they were going to have the same level of staffing and the same level of qualification, why not say so? Why remove the role at all?

“Guard” at the moment is pretty specific when it comes to safety and responder roles, so moving from “guards on the train” to “people on the train” is potentially significant. And I think the main thing when the operators are coming back with “it will make no difference”, is “why are you changing it then”. There are commitments they could make that would settle this, that they have chosen not to.

Southern’s position is a bit different I think, don’t know much about that.

I don’t claim to know the ins and outs but seems like Abellio rather clumsily upset a system which was slightly precarious in the first place…

Seems likely, and any ‘system’ that requires compulsory overtime is yet another ‘tick’ in the 5h1t Management box.

Having witnessed the same thing happen on two separate Tram journey’s recently I can sympathise with the safety aspect of Driver operated trains.

On Friday morning a family party were still boarding the tram only for the doors to close and the tram to pull away, mum, dad, and grandad still on platform, granny and kids on tram. Friday afternoon, nursery group trying to get off tram at Haymarket with buggies and toddlers; again doors close whilst group has not fully disembarked. Neither of these would have happened if there had been a guard on the platform checking before closing the doors.

<should probably have said this>. My post’s mostly a bit anti-scotrail so for balance, obviously all strikes are always about SAFETY and CUSTOMER SERVICE and never about money or avoiding job cuts. (I wish unions felt comfortable saying that it can be both, but we’ve seen too often how it is spun/perceived). In this case, it actually does seem to be substantially about safety concerns though.

“Guard” at the moment is pretty specific when it comes to safety and responder roles, so moving from “guards on the train” to “people on the train” is potentially significant.

It may well be.

Not convinced its about safety (RMT would have found someone eloquent and convincing to “sell” it to the public if it was). It might be about jobs, but I suspect its more about power and the RMT stamping its authority on Abellio to show them “how it works here”. Driverless trains should be much easier than cars so, hopefully we will get them before I retire.

Crossrail, and I think, Thameslink when completed, will be nearly ‘driverless’. The Driver will still be there, but the train will run on it’s own out of stations, once the driver has hit the ‘proceed’ button.
The Train Companies are trying to reduce their wage bill – a Guard is on more money than a Conductor/ticket seller.
That’s because they have more responsibility (one was jailed last year for letting a train set off when a girl was leaning against it), but, the Train Companies are saying they don’t need the Guard on many services.
This is partly true. There are many commuter services that have a Guard, but all he does is tell the Driver the doors are shut and to proceed, and then open the doors at the next station. This is actually inefficient in many places, as the Guard may not be able to reach the door opening buttons immediately. So, there is a good argument for the driver to open the doors without any input from the Guard – he knows the train has stopped, and is in the right position, so why cant he open the doors as the train stops?
There are many traisn that do not have a guard now. Safety doesnt seem to have been too much of a concern for these services, even many services that nhave a guard are comprised of 2 units with no corridor connection between the 2, so safety of passengers is not really a valid argument.
The train Companies woudl rather have their Staff collecting fares, rather than having to go to the nearest door when a station is approached. Anyone who travels on mnay inner-suburban services without platform ticket machines will know that the Gurad cannot get round to everyine sometimes due to other duties when the train is running, so the Companies see this as revenue lost to non-paying passengers, and paying too much for someone who doesnt do great deal for the safety of the train.
Freight trains used to have a Guard in the brake van at the back of the train, but now nearly all freight trains are one man operated.
The RMT still argue that many practices are unsafe, which, on reflection are not, but, they are doing what they are paid for – standing up for their members.

alanl – Member

There are many traisn that do not have a guard now. Safety doesnt seem to have been too much of a concern for these services, even many services that nhave a guard are comprised of 2 units with no corridor connection between the 2, so safety of passengers is not really a valid argument.

All this means is there’s not been a major incident yet where it’d have made a critical difference- it’s like saying you don’t need the fire brigade because your house has never burned down. British railways are safe but they’re not infallable, you don’t make your safety plans based on the fact that you’ve not had a major incident; you do it based on the possibility that you’ll have one in the future.

And of the 10 serious incidents in “passenger train interface”, ie doors/platform issures, investigated in the last 5 years, 8 were driver-only trains.

I see Scotrail have made a pretty big concession today- fully qualified conductors guaranteed on all electrified routes. That’s exactly the sort of guarantee I was talking about earlier- they’ve made vague noises about staff before but til now they’ve refused to guarantee qualified staff. That’s a big change, I guess we’ll see if it makes a difference.

Mersey rail operate mostly 3 coach trains with a guard and driver, and one guard is already in prison for closing the doors and a passenger fell between the train and platform and sadly died.

and next year another court case starts against a guard who closed the doors and a lady fell from the platform.

While on the london underground all trains just have a driver, and most of the 12 coach southern based trains are DOO.

as for revenue collection, are you really going to collect cash or other payment from a person who has no reason to pay for a ticket,if youre on your own and with only a driver to help, and BTP miles away, and you know if you stop the train for a fare evader, then your train operationg company will be charged many thousands of pounds for train delay minutes.

Keep the Guards, and employ fare evasion teams to work mob handed, like here on merseyrail, but saying that merseyrail are due new trains in next few years and a good guess is they will be DOO, to save costs and stop trains being cancelled when no guard is available..

Northwind, where are you getting your news? I’ve found the BBC stories fairly content light on the matter…

Interesting point re: fires and fire brigades…

My brother’s a trainspotter so he has the hotline 😆 But that update’s here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-36940445?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Southern still have guards, thameslink is DOO, same parent company now, largely same lines (Brighton mainline), and rolling stock.
It sounds like scotrail and southern disputes are remarkably similar, operators want to save money, unions want to protect jobs, rail users pissed off and caught in the middle.

I think it was to do with the move towards ever expanding cassettes. 12 speed is on its way

Friday afternoon, nursery group trying to get off tram at Haymarket with buggies and toddlers; again doors close whilst group has not fully disembarked. Neither of these would have happened if there had been a guard on the platform checking before closing the doors.

Must have been 10 years back when smoking was banned and the guy on the platform at Penrith was saying how the regularly left smokers on the platform, once the doors close they close. Passengers problem.

Now started a 5 day strike, commuters not happy, train company loosing a lot of cash, union members loosing a lot of cash.

Simple solution leave the jobs as they are, and for commuters think about living nearer your place of work or being within walking or cycling distance like we do up north.

Either 5 million jobs in London would have to move out in to the home counties, or 5 million people in the commuter belt would have to move closer to London.

I bought a car. Mentioned it before. There were exactly 2 reasons… Jimmy Knapp and RMT.

Glad the strikers are losing cash. Safety issue pressing a a button twice at every station? Might they break a finger nail or get a blister or something?

Now started a 5 day strike, commuters not happy, train company loosing a lot of cash, union members loosing a lot of cash.

Train company is not losing any cash – the ticket money goes to the govt, they get paid a service fee regardless, and anyway most commuters will have paid in advance for a season ticket. Govt will lose some revenue but then they’re saving on the wages bill, probably making a profit.

The only ones that are really f***ed are the commuters!

Incidentally RSSB (train industry safety body) research has never shown a safety issue with DOO, which is why it’s already used on 40% of services. Strike has naff all to do with safety, but everything to do with job security.

What he said ^
|

I can understand why the union would try and protect jobs but the crap about safety to justify it is irritating.
Apparently there’s a chance of a super strike next month as the ticket office staff and drivers are also balloting for strikes for other reasons.

virgin east coast are now due to strike as well.

winter of discontent on its way,

poly – Member
Driverless trains should be much easier than cars so, hopefully we will get them before I retire.

Far too many variables and higher potential damage if something goes wrong (not only in terms of casualties, there’s damage to infrastructure and vehicles too) As someone mentioned above it’s the better part of a year to train a driver, and that’s pretty much full time. If our railway network was standardised (the cost would be astronomical) it may work…if there weren’t things such as equipment failures, people doing stupid things, maintenance etc to contend with.

There’s a reason there are drivers and signallers controlling trains, it’s not simple.