also @km79

We don’t need oil to become independent, there is much more to life than how much money is in the public purse.

If thats true, I assume you were fine with George Osbornes “Tory austerity” and said nothing against it?

Does it really not matter to you what pays for the NHS? Social care? Education?

Really?

Heres some homework.
What was the largest percentage cut in the worst year of Osbornes Tory austerity (actual cuts not scottish government predictions)?
What percentage is 10Bn (Scottish Deficit) of 68.4Bn (Scottish Spending)?

If one of those numbers raises your hackles (because Tory!);
and the other leaves you feeling fine (because SNP!),
Then you have problems.

there is much more to life than how much money is in the public purse.

Wasn’t that a core Brexit argument?

Wasn’t that a core Brexit argument?

No

eat the pudding – as you well know those figures do not show the whole picture.

But still. too poor, too wee, too feart

Yes transition would be tricky but there is no economic reason why scotland – a land blessed with abundant natural resources would not be a rich country once we are no longer being held back by englands stupid economic policies

duckman
I didn’t say “too poor”.

I showed the (scottish government) figures for a realistic first year of “freedom” and asked you what you would cut to cope.

If you think Scotland can afford it. Tell me how?

If you think losing the equivalent of the money needed to run the NHS (every year until the Scottish economy catches up) is a price worth paying, then just say that. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

km79
Really? Thats all you have?

It’s not “money” its hospital beds, care home places, teachers, a social safety net for the poor and unemployed.

If you don’t give a “shite” about that then carry on, and I look forward to seeing the healing and restoring powers of wrapping yourself in a flag.

Firstly unless Westminster goes for the hard leave option which would be in the scots favour theer will have to be transitional arrangements for several years so the 10 billion in year one is nonsense

Secondly as you well know the 10 billion is only a snapshot and does not cover everything by any means on both sides of the equation – the true deficit is a lot less.

tjagain
I look forward to your educational economic analysis with graphs and such.

For the avoidance of doubt, I know scotland can survive as an independent country, but even the SNP are no longer telling us that we would be the “n”th richest (that nonsense came from the convenient spike in oil prior to the 2014 vote).

Most people who are in favour of independence seem to think that that step would make Scotlands NHS, education system, social care etc etc “better”.

But the reality is that even today, with more money than they would realistically have for maybe the first 20 or 30 years of independence the Scottish Government has worse results than the English NHS, and far worse results in Education (where they have full control).

How will independence (and less money) make that better?

Will the first year of independence lead to more money for the NHS?
If not the first year, which year?

Where are the facts that say it will be “better” or is it flags all the way down?

tjagain,
Then those figures shoiuld be available in a graph or table from a reputable government source?

[citation required]

Its all out there if you want to see it – information and misinformation over decades.

for example – firms selling products in Scotland but with their HQ in england – which side of that equation is their profit from Scotland on? Oh its not included? Funny that. Lots o9f examples like that.

Seems like organising Sexit would be like Brexit but worse… although the background is somewhat different.

A trivial omission

Deloitte acknowledging last year that GERS was not a guide to the finances of an independent – rather than devolved – Scotland.

The bulk of the £10bn figure – £7.5bn – is arrived at by treating the Barnett Formula as an annual cash gift from the Treasury, when in fact it’s simply a mechanism for returning about 95% of Scotland’s average payment into the UK.

Our very alertest readers will probably have spotted at this point that the core premise of the report is that the UK is going to remain in the EU.

TJ you say “held back by” I say “financially supported by”

I would agree an Independent Scotland would be internationally focused, same argument for Brexit actually. Get away from being tied to the EU.

I really should look at moving my pension from Standard Life, its obvious if there ever was a “Yes” vote there would be massive transfer charges applied.

Phew WoS – keep it coming!

Standard Life will have moved well before then. Nae worries Jambas – unless the SNP are still offering a 300bp corp tax advantage

eat_the_pudding – Member
I asked this before (which bits will we not pay for) and no-one actually answered. Strange when people seem so confident when just waving their hands.

So defence can piss off, 3bn. And 6.2bn in the other social seems the obvious choice till the books and can be balanced. (Or rather than be that drastic, you just marginially decrease everything by a wee bit, there’s way around it. Is it going to be easy on some? no in the short term. long term, well that’s purely be down to us to sort by our selves, wouldn’t really be any of your business.)

Then we can start making more money, personally as a start I’d legalise all Drugs and cream in the tax revenue(from a uk wide market) and the tourism boost that that would give ye. So would probably make a fair whack there that we can stick back in to other social..

fag packet economics, aye, but happy to get into the nitty gritty of things if you want to supply detailed data? (you canny just put up the Gers figures and say what would you want rid off, as clearly no-one is particularly verse in what makes up those chunks.)

Talks infinitely more sense than you

Aye , it must be the Rev’s religious training BB

Please keep feeding us with his pearls of wisdom. No one else could make them up- they’re brilliant

so what’s your next question, lender of last resort? Well, worst happens, probly rUK and various others. Same as was done with ireland. The UK isn’t shy about making a profit on other peoples misfourtune, I doubt rUK would be much different.

No mate – independent currency, independent central bank and independent LoLR. That’s what independence means.

A quick fire way to rebalance the economy in one quick move. Brillliant

Then next question – ask yourself how the central bank builds up its reserves.,,

So, how did Ireland manage to get a loan from the UK and various others? How come greece canny stop people from giving it money, even against it’s own will.

There’s always some charlatan to get a loan from.

But still we are talking last resort apocalyptic scenarios here.

Well reserves is a good question. Many like to point if the deficit Scotland have. But let’s tally up the total Debt and reserves and see where we stand with that too. What’s scotlands share of the assets?

Sorry Joe you have some many things mixed up there it’s impossible to know where to start

May I suggest that you might need to read up on what the LoLR does

If we are going to waste more time on another referendum then we should at least try to step up from la la land to reality as tough as that may be

Still waiting on your reference to those figures that are all over the place.. Presumably as it’s so obvious it won’t take long. [space reserved for citation]
As for the assertion that GERS is faulty because of X…
GERS is produced by the Scottish Government.. Why doesn’t Nic pop down the corridor to the people she employs and ask them to make the figures accurate. If she could do that why hasn’t she?

Removing 10Bn of obvious discrepancies would make the Scottish economy look great 🙂 No?

I know I have. I also know youse are only projecting part of the story too.

Eat, as I said come back when youve got some figures we can actually do something with rather than the blocks of the gers figures, and their vagueness. You can’t ask people to get specific with generalised figures.

Yes the easy bit. It gets far more complicated….

Start off with a break down on the assets.

Btw what’s the point of this anyhow. To prove that an is will have its challenges at the start?

Of course it will, we accept that.

Have you decided what are assets not liabilities this time? That also a good start.

The DO was struggling with that last time

Plus I’d also like to hear of any examples of people’s that have split from UK rule and want the UK to rule once again?

Just one example will do?

teamhurtmore – Member
Have you decided what are assets not liabilities this time? That also a good start.

The DO was struggling with that last timeyou seem to have all the answers. Let’s see the break down?

seosamh77
As I said above I’m not arguing that Scotland COULD not be independent.

I’m arguing that based on the best figures available, produced by the SNP government themselves, it would be poorer for it, for a significant amount of time, additional flags notwithstanding.

If The figures added up differently in the way that many of you still hope and dream, then Nic would be shouting it from the rooftops.

But shes not.

From here itv news

Nicola Sturgeon has denied claims that Scotland’s deficit could be a barrier for the country remaining in the EU.

Speaking to ITV News on Friday, the First Minister insisted Scotland’s £14.8bn deficit should instead be blamed on the failures of the UK.

She said: “Yes we’ve got a deficit, most countries across the world have deficits.

“It’s a bit rich of politicians who are advocating we stay part of a system that’s left us with a deficit to argue that’s the best future.

“Do we carry on with the policies that have put us in this position and are threatening to make it worse, or do we take control over our economy and our own hands so that we can work our way out of these situations”.

The figure, which accounts for 9.5% of Scotland’s GDP, is far higher than the 3% limit EU rules stipulate new members have when they join – and higher than struggling EU member state Greece.

“I don’t think people really understand how offensive it is for people in Scotland – an economy that has renewables and life sciences, world leaders in food and drink and tourism – compared to Greece.”

Ignore the window dressing and spin about whose fault it is (despite the fact that she now has most of the powers that she would have as an independent country in the EU, and that the UKs overall deficit is tiny by comparison).

Concentrate on the fact that she doesn’t say “its complicated” or quote WoS.

Unlike many on here;
She accepts that the deficit is real
She accepts that its worse than Greece.
She argues that pointing that out is rude (Ha!)

It’s not “post-truth” in Scotland, its “rude-facts”.

But at least she accepts the truth of the financial situation;

Anyone else?

Edit .. We’ve had Wings and GERS denial .. 20 more points for the first to bring up whisky export tax :O)

the Scottish Government has worse results than the English NHS, and far worse results in Education

Any actual evidence for that ETP?

So how many pages d’ja reckon?

Good old wee nippy talking about timing, right in the of Brexshit, hope TM says FO, now or afterwards or not at all. Alternatively even better if the EU said, STFU and wait.

Or any evidence for this

despite the fact that she now has most of the powers that she would have as an independent country

eat_the_pudding – Member
seosamh77
As I said above I’m not arguing that Scotland COULD not be independent.

I’m arguing that based on the best figures available, produced by the SNP government themselves, it would be poorer for it.aye but you’re only arguing about day 1. it’s how these conversations always go. I’m not, I’m taking a wild stab in the dark that we’ll be better off in the long term making our own decisions(I freely admit that.). I’ve said it many times, it’s a decision I’m willing to live with, for better or poorer.

You can try and whittle that down to a balance sheet all you like. But it’s not really going to sway me.

Would I prefer to wait until the figures look better? Yes. Will I take the chance if it comes next year? Yes. Fully aware of the figures.

Och aye, Scots are incapable of managing their country’s finances. If something goes wrong wey’re incapable of sorting it out.

We don’t have enough resources.

Oh we do have oil, but that’s obviously a bad thing because we’d quickly be as broke as Saudi Arabia or Norway if we didn’t have the wise guidance of Westminster to spend it on Trident nukes and HS2 and foreign wars.

Now let’s consider a hypothetical case.
Let’s say you have a country.
Now who best to run that country?
That country itself, or the bigger country next door?
Hmmm, deep thought…

Yup, maybe France should rule England in that case.

BTW the UK govt has been lying about the oil figures for the last 30+ years, so why should we believe them now?

she now has most of the powers that she would have as an independent country in the EU

She does?

http://www.parliament.scot/visitandlearn/Education/18642.aspx

This seems to suggest otherwise. Lot’s of powers still reserved to Westminster. Maybe you should read up a bit more.

Plus I’d also like to hear of any examples of people’s that have split from UK rule and want the UK to rule once again?

Not really relevant in this case as Scotland is part of the UK, it isn’t ruled by the UK. That is playing into the hands of the SNP who like to portray Scotland as this helpless oppressed little country under the tyrannical rule of the evil English empire.

And anyway, there are lots of people all over the world who would love British rule back which was far more benevolent than the corrupt tin pot dictators they have now. Trouble is no one ever asks these people.