But, you were warned this might happen before voting and chose to risk it..

There are repeated attempts to make out as if, at Indyref1, we all knew a EU referendum was coming. We didn’t. We were told over an over that the way to save our EU membership was to vote No. we were told that Labour would win the coming election, or at worst there’d be another coalition – Ruth Davidson herself said so.

This airbrushing of history is a good attempt, but it’s not true to say that people voted No in indyref1 knowing that an EU referendum was happening. It’s just a lie.

There are repeated attempts to make out as if, at Indyref1, we all knew a EU referendum was coming. We didn’t.

You knew it was a strong possibility. Many saw it as a probability. THe Tories had pledged one, and Labour had promised one if any further powers were to be transferred, and as pointed out, Rab specifically warned against the risk of it happening as a reason to vote Yes. It’s entirely disingenuous to pretend this was a remote possibility that wasn’t aired beforehand, or cropped up out of the blue in the aftermath of the indyref.

we were told that Labour would win the coming election, or at worst there’d be another coalition

Well, some people said that… 😆 😆 😆

Ben you’re right in that Better Together frequently used phrases like “only way to guarantee Scotland’s EU membership is to vote no” It wasn’t much of a guarantee though, because, in 2013 Cameron did promise a referendum on EU membership
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21148282
Then again I see he made the same promise in 2009 and didn’t deliver so maybe his loyal lieutenants in Better Together thought he wouldn’t deliver this time either

tjagain – Member
anyway grumpy the situation is different post the EU referendum. I have seen EU lawyers opinion that if the EU wanted to do it they could simply declare scotland the successor state so long as the independence vote was before the UK left the EU

I believe this is true, but fairly academic, I don’t see there being a vote before brexit fully happens tbh.

I also think an IS vote based on being member of the EU is doomed to failure. I think a lot of people will view the EU differently post brexit, at least they will be confused as to where they stand, as i am regarding scotland in a post brexit EU.

I think an early referendum is too hasty, and doomed to failure tbh. Everything is just too complex. Meaning the game of subertuge that people on here and politicians like to play, will be all too easy.

Plus, simple fact is people did vote no, so you have to go with that for a while, and convince them otherwise, that’s not happened yet, and opportunism on the back of brexit is a dangerous hand to play.

Plus as I’ve said before, brexit and how it goes, will answer alot of unanswerable question about an IS and the aftermath.

I have seen EU lawyers opinion that if the EU wanted to do it they could simply declare scotland the successor state so long as the independence vote was before the UK left the EU

Where and who paid for it? Or was it just a blog post or letter to the editor?

What legal (paid for or in house) advice has the SNP or Scottish Government had on the matter? Who from, and what did it say?

Joe and Nicola knows the polls too – she has to keep here more rabid members fed from the indy spoon while praying that the majority of people can be hoodwinked at a later date.

When do you think she will pass the first piece of legislation in the new session?
Do you reckon that with the good news that Bruce published, income inequality might start to follow rUk trends and improve at some stage?

Perhaps they do a pre emmitive vote so they can become the successor state or the EU hold out to see what way they vote??

Nothing is impossible where there is political will- see the euro for example 😉

Its clearly very different from last time re EU membership.

teamhurtmore – Member
hoodwinked

See this is the thing about your stance tbh, it’s all very sneerish at times, you should reign it in a bit.. It’s not really a good look. And it doesn’t really mask your real fears about an IS, which are all too obvious…that Englands standing in the world falls even further without us, particularly in a post brexit scenario! 😉 We can all see the real reason, well a large percentage of us, loss of face and that seat at the big table scares the life out of ye! 😆

Yes, the numbers for an IS don’t particularly stand up at the moment(neither does just about every western nation, debt and deficit is the natural order), but that’s within the context of the UK and there’s plenty of small countries that are viable. Scotland will be viable post IS.

Hoodwink is the perfect description. YS blatantly lied – lots of it in the BoD – with deliberate intent. And it worked, remember how confused people were on basic issues at the time, and they remain confused now. The same lies misunderstanding have been repeated over the past few pages – unless you believe that the people who post those things are incapable of sensible thought, you have to conclude that they have indeed been hoodwinked,

You’re good at hoodwinking yourself though, well capable of playing the status quo as something that will hold forever. it won’t.

Similarly the BoD, as you call it, wasn’t a blue print for a future scotland, as you like to put it forward as, it was a document of aspirations and a(n SNP) vision. About as much as you can ask for. Anyone with half a brain understands that nation building won’t come from a manifesto.

it’s all very sneerish at times

I must be missing some of his posts, is he not like this on rugger threads?

Nothing last forever Joe, we both know that. The important thing is that the future is better than the past. Hence, be careful what you wish for and what you believe. And don’t let politicians get away with BS, just look at he current mess for evidence of that.

Edit for edit…no it was pages of unsupported facts and lies hat were easy to falsify. Hence, hood winking…..go and reread what they said about EU membership, how this is was untrue and how the same stuff keeps getting posted in here. “Dreams” is far too polite for the what it contained.

teamhurtmore – Member
The important thing is that the future is better than the past.

We’ll agree there, but if that comes from the project of “complete the privatisation agenda” that we’re well on the road to and just went into overdrive on with brexit, i’ll be astounded.

We’ll see in 10 years or so..

And it doesn’t really mask your real fears about an IS, which are all too obvious…that Englands standing in the world falls even further without us, particularly in a post brexit scenario!

Not really, Corbyn’s Labour is more little Englander reducing significantly the projection of power and becoming more like a average small European country. The conservatives know they can’t afford to project power like they used to and there aren’t the people anymore and are now trying to do a China with development aid. The empire is long gone and the Scots who helped build it seem to be suffering collective amnesia.

The theme of the plucky Scot trying to reach a utopia denied by the

English (jack)boot

is patently untrue, but it does two things, upsets people with the obvious subtext adding to the PITA strategy, and polarises an important discussion with an “us” and “them”

As the not so humourous petition shows, Scots nationalists are still loved by rUK

teamhurtmore – Member
Edit for edit…no it was pages of unsupported facts and lies hat were easy to falsify. Hence, hood winking…..go and reread what they said about EU membership, how this is was untrue and how the same stuff keeps getting posted in here. “Dreams” is far too polite for the what it contained.

maybe, but it was still just an snp manifesto though, not a blueprint.

big_n_daft – Member
The theme of the plucky Scot trying to reach a utopia denied by the
English (jack)boot
is patently untrue

I don’t disagree with that statement at all. I don’t subscribe to those views. I’m well aware lots of scots have been and are willing participants in the union.

We’ll agree there, but if that comes from the project of “complete the privatisation agenda” that we’re well on the road to and just went into overdrive on with brexit, i’ll be astounded.

When are the Scottish Government nationalising GP practices?

What new privatisation has been announced post Brexit?

Joe I fear that you may be among those who “may” have been hoodwinked.

Your view: not a blue print

The BoD view

This guide lays out how we can complete Scotland’s journey to home rule and become a fully independent country.

QED. Thank you.

big_n_daft – Member
We’ll agree there, but if that comes from the project of “complete the privatisation agenda” that we’re well on the road to and just went into overdrive on with brexit, i’ll be astounded.
When are the Scottish Government nationalising GP practices?

What new privatisation has been announced post Brexit?

I can only answer those questions in 10 or 15 years in the aftermath. I’m not privvy to plans.

But i’m sure on one thing, and that’s that the people taking advantage of brexit, and the law making ability, won’t be doing it for the common good.

teamhurtmore – Member
Joe I fear that you may be among those who “may” have been hoodwinked.

Your view: not a blue print

The BoD view

This guide lays out how we can complete Scotland’s journey to home rule and become a fully independent country.

we = SNP. ie it’s their manifesto.

Do you believe that it was a SNP document?

Did you consider the part of the sentence beyond the word we and what is may represent?

teamhurtmore – Member
Do you believe that it was a SNP document?

It was a Scottish gov doc, the Scottish gov was a majority SNP gov at the time, so yes, it was an SNP document

Did you consider the part of the sentence beyond the word we and what is may represent?

Can you reword that?

One thing this thread has shown me is really how unpleasant some unionists are with their sneering and condescension which allied to ignorance is a very nasty stance indeed.

Can you reword that?

No need, we both know what a blue print is and we both can read the introduction to the BoD.

teamhurtmore – Member
Can you reword that?
No need, we both know what a blue print is and we both can read the introduction to the BoD.

Any Scottish government post IS, barring a majority SNP government, would not beholden to the “BoD”. To claim it would be is incredibly disingenuous.

Plus even at that, claiming anyone beholden to something written in 2014, forever, is nonsense.

One thing this thread has shown me is really how unpleasant some unionists are with their sneering and condescension which allied to ignorance is a very nasty stance indeed.

Ach, we’ve got our share of zoomers, I don’t think we should be getting on our high horses.

It’s the usual story, you only ever remember the total ****.

I still can’t figure out how many Scottish Unionists there actually are on here. A lot of the most vocal opposition to independence seems to be coming from folk living outside of Scotland.

Of all the daftness I’ve seen on STW the notion that TMH want’s Scotland to remain part of the UK as otherwise the UK’s standing in the world would be diminished is the daftest by far.

If not for Brexit the SNP would have some other excuse for Indy Ref 2 to be the main agenda or otherwise their loss 55/45, a reduced Holyrood majority and their poor track record of delivery of the promised utopia whilst in Government would be centre stage.

Aye indeed there are a few zoomers around but nowhere have I seen such unpleasantness allied to ignorance from the nationalist side.

I don’t think there are any scots arguing the unionist cause on here – a couple of neutrals maybe.

What really gets to me is the total lack of understanding shown by some for example the confusion between SNP policy and the future direction of scotland. The sheer willful blindness to the fact many of us want to do things differently up here and the sneering condescension. The inability to understand that some of us value other things than money Fortunatly I only see THMs post when someone quotes them

jambalaya – Member
Of all the daftness I’ve seen on STW the notion that TMH want’s Scotland to remain part of the UK as otherwise the UK’s standing in the world would be diminished is the daftest by far.

So the “better together” line was a lie? 😆

Jamba – what other reason is for the English Unionists to want to hold on to scotland? Its prestige or the loss of money.

We were told that if we left the UK we would have no more influence on world affairs than Finland – we all looked at each other and said ” sounds about right”

Any Scottish government post IS, barring a majority SNP government, would not beholden to the “BoD”. To claim it would be is incredibly disingenuous. Plus even at that, claiming anyone beholden to something written in 2014, forever, is nonsense.

All very interesting but not really relevant.

You claim that the BoD was not a blueprint. The SNP/Scottish Government (you decide) stated the opposite and were quite explicit – we can all read what they said.

This guide lays out how we can complete Scotland’s journey to home rule and become a fully independent country.

looks like a blue print, smells like a blue print, sounds like a blue print – but it isnt one, its a manefesto!!

So perhaps in the end, we agree. The document – including the sentence stating that is was indeed a guide/blueprint – was simple another lie to accompany much of the rest of the content. I am glad that square has been circled. We can retire in agreement 😉

The SNP/Scottish Government (you decide) stated the opposite and were quite explicit – we can all read what they said.

They could be explicit as they liked. Still doesn’t make it a blueprint.

Can you show me the law they passed saying they must follow that book to the letter? (If they gained power post IS).

In reality the “BoD” was a campaign tool, nothing more. And expensive one yes, but no different to the nonsense that fall through your door at every election/referendum.

So, yes, perhaps we do agree. (you know if no fan of the SNP anyhow.)

Of course not.

But we agree then – the words they used including…

This guide lays out how we can complete Scotland’s journey to home rule and become a fully independent country.

…were not to be believed or taken at face value. It was indeed a book of false dreams with no legal or factual basis. Bravo!

Sleep well – I have a bloody student essay to review now 🙁

btw the word “guide” can be interpreted a few ways. You’re only allowing one definition. Quelle suprise, yet more deceit from yourself, need to watch that old chap, in danger of becoming a habit you may struggle to shake! 😆

I’m pretty sure there was to be an election prior to actual independence to allow different manifestos to be produced and for people to chose. I might just have imagined that though and I can’t be arsed to Google.

There was KM – because of the timing. this is another issue the unionists her don’t get.

Joe – c’mon you are above swerving!! Dont debase yourself to the level of others 😉

The number of pages and level of pretend detail make it very clear what type of guide they pretended it to be. An alternative would not have extended beyond a page or two. Need to watch that young man, in danger of becoming a habit. Leave that to others who have never attempted to shake it.

Still doesn’t negate the fact that anything in it’s pages relied on subsequent governments implementing them. A highly unlikely scenario. You’d need to be completely unaware of the transience of governments and political parties to believe otherwise. Many are but unfortunately that’s what politics thrives on, the ignorance of the masses.

teamhurtmore – Member
Joe – c’mon you are above swerving!! Dont debase yourself to the level of others

btw not body swerving at all, i just reckon the use of the word “guide”, by the SNP lawyers, would have been deliberate due to it’s ambiguity.