following on from my ‘cramped’ thread im just wondering what people are setting there saddle height at and how they are determing so?

ive used the age old technique of heel on pedal at bottom of pedal stroke = straight leg and therefore then means slight kink in leg at bottom pedal stroke clipped in?

ive changed from a 400mm post with plenty of post to use, to a 350mm dropper post with fair less in terms of post as the minimum insert sits very high…..

That’s what I use too. works fine for me, numerous bikes, many years riding.

I have found tiny changes, esp seat angle, can make the whole feel quite different.

As cynic-al says it’s your seat angle…

OW, I think your right on the height setting, but in conjunction with that I set mine up so with the cranks horizontal the front of my knee (forward leg) is over the pedal spindle (use a bit of string and a weight). That helps set your for aft position relative to the cranks.

Its not for everyone but its a sound starting point and gets the mechanics of your legs working about right.

i must have a been running my 400mm higher though as im suddenly feeling this cramped effect since swapping to a 350mm, that said even on the min insert im still able to do the whole leg straight heel etc, so its got to be about right….

saddle in rails i may try and play with and possible angle too, though i like it slightly dipped as i get numb nutzzz if i have it too level

cheers guys – useful info to work on, what sort of angle are we talking for optimum position? maybe i have a got mine to far down at the front

I like flat, but it really is personal preference.

Seat choice and undercarriage varies so much!

Using a shorter seat post obviously makes the length between your seat and bars shorter, hence why you feel more cramped now.

You cant determine seat height by putting your heel on the pedal (or you can but its probably not optimum). I dont know how you determine it, but your pedalling style can make a huge difference (i.e. heels down or toes down or neither)

You jsut need to play about a bit till you get it to feel right, thats all there is to it.

I usually have to mimic an inline post by having the seat forward on the rails; if the seat slides backwards on the rails I’ll end up riding badly/uncomfy and not realise why until I get home and notice.

I’m just under 6ft and this is a 17″ frame (the 18″ Mmmbop I had before was a little too big).

Note the seat all the way forward on the rails which is required because the seat angle is 71 deg with the 36 forks on it… seat forward on the rails makes it more like a 72/73 and hence I can get this comfy.

Have you gone from an inline normal post to a layback dropper post (not that anything will tell you that other measuring saddle position on the posts in question… )?

As I said before – try sliding the saddle forward on the rails as I think your arching your back and feeling cramped because the saddle is too far behind the bottom bracket. Feeling cramped is the symptom not the problem.

http://www.ebicycles.com/article/determining-your-bicycle-saddle-height.html#saddle-fore-aft-position%5D

http://www.ebicycles.com/article/determining-your-bicycle-saddle-height.html#saddle-fore-aft-position

Ignore that

“proper” knee position – I don’t buy it.

davidtaylforth – Member

Determining Your Bicycle Saddle Height

Ignore that

I’d say Tinsys link looks pretty useful actually it’s just a round up of various theories as applied to bike setup and the interactions between body position, pedaling efficiency, control etc you can read it and apply or discard sections of it as you see fit…

seems better than your (cribed from MBR/MBUK) half arsed approach…

😆

messiah – top man appreciate your input… – it was just a normal post before and obvs. a normal straight dropper too…just reading your

As I said before – try sliding the saddle forward on the rails as I think your arching your back and feeling cramped because the saddle is too far behind the bottom bracket. Feeling cramped is the symptom not the problem.

this is exactly the feeling im getting – im cramped, but ive actually run the saddle further behind than normal as i thought it would give me a little more height seated as its pointed slightly down…i kind of assumed with my crap logic that further back would spread the cramped feeling out a bit more length ways? i am totally wrong going off what you suggest though 🙁

I’d say Tinsys link looks pretty useful actually it’s just a round up of various theories as applied to bike setup and the interactions between body position, pedaling efficiency, control etc you can read it and apply or discard sections of it as you see fit…

seems better than your (cribed from MBR/MBUK) half arsed approach…

Yes, its great if you just want something to go by and then at least it’ll put your mind at rest as you know you’ve set your bike up by some set of instructions so it cant be wrong.

But really, formulas for working out seat height? What a load of shite.

The only way is to play about and change things till you get something that feels right. Or you could always pay for a bike fit (but even then, would it be right?)

But for mountain biking, it doesnt really matter that much anyway.

But really, formulas for working out seat height? What a load of shite.

Maybe, there are some fit-systems that are good guidelines and others that I’m less convinced by. I’m a bit sceptical of ‘bike fittings’ in general, I had one done once out of interest and it wasn’t much use, I got a better result by trial and error and doing miles, however what I tried was based on other fitting advise / ideas and I’ve heard they do work for others.

For Xc and road riding, the Lemond method of 0.883 x inside leg is well tried and tested, seems to work well for most people. It feels low at first to some but I do see a lot of riders with saddles too high, often then tilted down to compensate. I find it a good starting point (ie it’s usually within +/- 5mm) for having a (level) saddle that’s only just high enough to be fully efficient and low enough to be out of the way, a good compromise. Beyond that, I’d agree whatever feels best is best, but starting at a point that’s been found to work isn’t a bad idea – since you can easily adapt to a ‘wrong’ position that causes longer-term stress or isless efficient.

One rule I don’t buy into is the knee-over-pedal thing, not for MTBs anyway and I’m not sure it’s anything more than a coincidence that it suits many road riders. Off-road gradients for seated climbing can vary more too, which may be why it’s less well used on MTBs.

OP, straight-leg with pedal-down is as good as any starting point, I used to use that but ‘straight-relaxed as in a slight bend, not extended-straight’ when working in a shop. So your saddle may be ~10mm too high if you’re using a straight-leg approach?

jameso – when clipped in i do have a slight bend/kink…when i put my heel on the pedal the leg is completely straight sat in the saddle…

so it really does sound pretty much ok in that respect, sounds like maybe i have the seat to far back and im arching over as messiah suggests and/or i have my saddle nose pointing to far down

Sounds about right then, the heel/straight is another way to do it. If your saddle is too nose-down it always raises a question about position, a flatter saddle moved forward with the sit-bone area same height above the cranks may be worth a try – as messiah suggested.
Numbness may suggest the wrong saddle shape – it shouldn’t need a nose-down solution (well not more than a couple of degrees) as that may start to give problems with hip/back alignment? That’s going beyond the basics of fit that I have any experience of tho..

Osilate Wildly
Ignore the doubters for now, follow the for aft setup in the link I posted, its one of thousands of such setups on the net including sheldon browns I beleive.
Its free to try and I think its at least a very good starting point to bike setup no matter if its road XC AM whatever if you want to get the best out of yourself then its kinda following a biomechanics theme to getting the best out of your muscles.

My personal experience of it was it also brought the handling of the bike alive, balanced the suspension better and brought gains in front end traction (obviously whilst seated anyhow)

Did I mention its also absolutely free to try?

I guess those who have been riding for a long time and never tried it may be doubters….

I’ve put the saddle further forwards on the rails by about 20mm recently and its made a big improvement in handling and climbing. I think I had pushed it back to account for the shorter stem I was using but it just put the BB too far infront of me. Since moving the saddle forwards, handling has improved with more weight over the front a able to get off the back easier. The saddle has to go up a few mm to keep the same hip to pedal measurement.
Try bringing the saddle forwards and then check the height again.

I run my saddle tilted back a tad. Helps getting over the back for steep downhills without having to drop the saddle.
Also when climbing, sliding forward on the nose effectively raises the saddle a touch.

tinsy – Member

Did I mention its also absolutely free to try?

I guess those who have been riding for a long time and never tried it may be doubters….

By all means try it, I’m not saying it won’t work. I just don’t see any rationale/logic to it. It comes from the roadie side – like deflating your tubs between rides, doubting clipless, 100 mile rides on water alone…

“proper” knee position – I don’t buy it.

Fair enough. Other than your hunch I don’t see you providing any evidence as to why it doesn’t work. I pretty much understand the basics of the levers and mechanics of why it is a reasonable start point tho.

But really, formulas for working out seat height? What a load of shite.

Given the optimal pedalling position seems to be ‘leg nearly straight at bottom of pedal stroke’ then ‘putting the saddle so your leg is nearly straight at the bottom of the pedal stroke’ seems a reasonable point to start from.

Get a bike fit done if you want it to be 100%. I had one done recently, new seatpost, saddle position changed, height raised, new bar and stem = much more comfortable and powerful.

Previously I’d done the heel/pedal thing too. My saddle was raised by 2m or so, inseam measured in at 77.7 and saddle height is now 68.5, but no idea of the ratio used for working it out – all my measurements and my flexibility was taken into account when setting it up.

saddle height should be lower than your nads when stood over it with your feet flat on the floor, it should be clamped near the centre of the rails (for strength) and tilted back around 30deg otherwise it just gets in the way of having fun.

TooTall – Member
“proper” knee position – I don’t buy it.
Fair enough. Other than your hunch I don’t see you providing any evidence as to why it doesn’t work. I pretty much understand the basics of the levers and mechanics of why it is a reasonable start point tho.

Maybe you could explain them then?

Once your hips are a set distance away from the bb, how does the angle between the 2 and horizontal (which is all the plumbline is about) have an affect on pedalling efficiency? Or why is it the best position for any other reason?

It’s your argument that’s not been backed up, I am simply questioning that lack.

Of course, those of us that sit down and pedal might think that’s just not quite right GW….

I’d love to see you ride the 60km I’ve just come back from stood up all the time. You must have thighs like Chris Hoy!

All those bike fit things sounds like they’re fine for bashing out the miles on flat roads, but on a mountain bike? Most of the time I’m either going up something steep ish, or down something steep ish. A good position for riding along the flat is almost irrelevant.

I have mine setup so I can get enough weight over the front to keep the wheel on the floor on the steepest climbs. It’s probably not the most efficient for smashing out road miles.

Well that bike fit tool is useless!! My legs are shorter than the minimum length you can enter!!

righty guys – before this goes into a raging argument 😆

ive tweaked a few things as suggested – ive tried to get my seat (by eye) as parallel to the ground as possible, it was nose diving a fair bit before, so ive got it as close to level as i can by eye…

and secondly the fore/aft, it was almost as far back as the little markings could go, so i was hanging off the back pedalling effectively….ive now changed this from one extreme to the other and put the saddle forward 1 marking away from the front….this upon sitting on has moved me obviously close and more or less bought my knee level to the spindle on my pedals when they are horizontal (as per link above)

so hopefully these tweaks will give me a more upright efficient pedal position, as last night i felt like i was arched over, crouching and with saddle being so far back felt like i was hanging off the end of the bike when climbing….

sound like a good starting point? or more specifically does that sound like what you have recommended me to do?

also forgot to mention, checked again and with seat up to max my heel is still straight on the pedal, and slightly bent when clipped in, its also i guess made the bend in the knee slightly less when clipped in as ive moved the seat forward

How do you set up for that superficial? (genuine question)

OP I wouldn’t change too many things at once, you won’t know what it is you like/dislike.

I’d guess the level saddle will stop forcing you forward into your bars and stop the cramped feeling.

good point al – never really thought about the sloping of the saddle may be forcing me into a cramped position – hopefully that will clear it

and moving it forward (if that links anything to go off) has now put me parallel with the spindle (again going off that link above), which obviously means i was a fair bit behind it before how it was setup….

ill try that for now, defo not really the saddle height thats causing it, as said above im still at full stretch with heel on pedal etc

OP, it sounds like you’ve done the right thing, as Al says don’t change too much otherwise it’ll just feel odd. The KOP thing, ignore it, trust me ) but if it works out that way it just shows that it’s incidental for many riders, fore-aft weight distribution overall is more important and allows you to get a good position with different body proportions or bike set ups.

cheers jameso – whats the KOP thing though? im sure its an abbreviation for something above but its just gone reet over my head 😆

Knee Over Pedal

ahhh of course 😳

cheers again guys – ill report back tomoz should i be able to get out in this poxy bloody weather 🙁

just dried out everywhere last night and now its absolutly pissing it down and be back to slop 🙁

How do you set up for that superficial? (genuine question)

Nothing clever – I just found that on steeper stuff I was perched right on the point of my seat (about as comfortable as it sounds) but if I slide the seat forwards in the rails a bit I can get more comfortable. I’ve never measured it but I’d imagine that would put my knee further forwards over the pedal.

Of course this knee-over-pedal thing only works on flat ground. If you put a 5 degree incline into the mix, your knee will probably be significantly behind the pedals. Where you’re pedalling downhill the opposite occurs. Whereas on a mountain bike I’ll probably be seated going uphill / along the flat, whereas on going down, 90% of the time I’ll be standing. So it makes sense to get the seat position biased more for climbing rather than a compromise of climbing and descending.

dirtygirlonabike – Member
Get a bike fit done if you want it to be 100%

I’d be quite wary of bike fits – Don’t get me wrong, they can be good but some come up with some very odd positions that don’t seem to work for many people while others may make the bike comfortable initially (usually by having high bars) rather than encouraging the rider to work on flexibility so that they can ride in a less aero draggy position.

Basically there isn’t a ‘correct’ setup, only what works right for you – the issue is obviously finding that in the first place and that’s where trying a few formulas to get an approximation to the right position is worthwhile.

A good example that springs to mind is Tom Boonen – he rides with a saddle that’s ‘too low’, having done so by mistake once and found that it worked for him.
http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-161608.html
(Though IIRC I read that he’s recently raised it so it’s only a bit ‘too low’ now)

Some more reading about KOPS: http://sheldonbrown.com/kops.html

Basically there isn’t a ‘correct’ setup, only what works right for you

This pretty much sums it up. You have to spend quite a while pissing about if you want to get it spot on.

Far to many idiots on this forum talking about formulas and other such bullshit. Ignore them cos they are clearly **** stupid.

Where do these formulas take into account your pedalling style? If you pedal heels down then you need your saddle lower than if you pedal toes down. I havent seen a formula that takes that into account.

And cleat position. If you cleats slammed as far back as it will go, this effectively shortens your pedalling stroke than if it was right the way forward.