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68 posts & 34 voices | Started 1 year ago by JonEdwards | Latest reply from IanMunro

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nickc - Member

but I have yet to see a top distance runner that lands heel first

Well, durrr, they're all trying to run as fast as they can...Not jog around the park in an attempt to shed a few unwanted pounds, I'd bet money that if you asked a top runner to do 9min miles they'd heel strike occasionally.

Every-one has a gait and rhythm and natural pace that is their own, and that isn't always running forefoot. Forcing people into running a particular way is a short cut to injuries. Forefoot running may work for you, great, genuinely pleased that you've found a way of running injury free. May not work for other people. The important thing is to run in a way that is injury free for you

Posted 1 year ago #
surfer - Member

I'd bet money that if you asked a top runner to do 9min miles they'd heel strike occasionally.

I've ran 4:21 (hardly a top runner) when running 8-9 minute miles I wouldnt heel strike simply because its not natural for me and I argue the bulk of runners, elite or not. Thats the point, its not about speed!

Posted 1 year ago #
dirtygirlonabike - Member

I've been running on and off for a few years, and steadily since May. Before May, I'd always suffered from some sort of pain when running - I used to get sore hip flexors, and other such things. I didn't run for a while and upped my weights in the gym to 2 or 3 sessions a week which seemed to do the trick.

The worst thing I think about starting to run when you are already fit is your body isn't running fit. The impact of running takes time to get used to. You need to start on a beginners programme of run walk before progressing up so your legs can get used to the impact etc. I'm now doing my first half marathon at the weekend, and my legs are struggling to adapt to longer miles i.e 10+miles.

Give it time, start slowly (there's no shame in a run walk programme, in fact some of the stuff i've been reading recently tends to suggest a run walk programme turns it into a interval session and thus more calories burnt) and make sure you've got decent shoes.

Posted 1 year ago #
surfer - Member

Every-one has a gait and rhythm and natural pace that is their own, and that isn't always running forefoot. Forcing people into running a particular way is a short cut to injuries. Forefoot running may work for you, great, genuinely pleased that you've found a way of running injury free. May not work for other people. The important thing is to run in a way that is injury free for you

That is exactly my point. Modern running shoes attempt to change this to something that for most is unnatural. I am not suggesting anyone "tries" to alter their natural running style but to be wary of shoes that do.
If you are a natural heel striker (and I suspect that is far fewer than the shoe manufacturers would have us believe) then fine, knock yourself out and get out training. If you are not then dont be told by shoe makers that you need a shoe with £50 worth of Gel/Air/Ionic EVA etc in the heel area. It is they that are forcing an unnatural style onto the bulk of runners.

Posted 1 year ago #
IanMunro - Member

Every-one has a gait and rhythm and natural pace that is their own, and that isn't always running forefoot.

I'm not entirely sure that's true, but I'm happy too be corrected. I doubt anyone heel strikes on a hard surface if they run barefoot, it's just too painful because it's not the way your body naturally works. I've spent all my adult life as a natural heel striker, till I took my shoes off and instantly I wasn't.
Of course a sample of one isn't exactly conclusive

Posted 1 year ago #
surfer - Member

And while were on the subject (sort of)

A good example of this is a friend of mine who pronates badly but more severely on one side. He ran for decades at a reasonable level with his share of injuries.
I happened to be behind him in a group on one run and noticed just how bad the pronation was. He told me it caused him no problems except on the occasions over the years when he had taken peoples advice to control it by using orthotics or control shoes. On those occasions he ended up injured, when he left it alone he had significantly less problems.
Pronation is a natural shock absorbing method and his body adapted over 000's of miles of training to the excess. Trying to stop it caused the problem.
Thats not to say excessive pronation is a good thing per se but given a steady and sensible training build up the body adapts very well.

Posted 1 year ago #
HTTP404 - Member

My opinions are open on foot strike being related to speed - to a point. Walking is a heel-striking motion and as we gradually increase speed you should see footstrike alter accordingly (barefoot). Trainers have obviously changed this a little.

T open up the debate more - I'm not a big advocate of stretching either.

Posted 1 year ago #
surfer - Member

I'm not a big advocate of stretching either.

Deja Vu?

I have conflicting views on this.
Many of our top and most successful distance runners have ignored stretching. I think it was Bedford who said "when they start giving out medals for stretching I'll start doing it" He didnt but was the world record holder at 10,000m
Coe claimed stretching gave him 1" per lap and was an advocate, anyone who has ran 1:41 for 800m knows what he is talking about.
Noakes cited studies that showed stretching can actually increase the risk of injury!

My opinion is it has provided me with relief when injured over the years so my personal opinion I suppose is that there is some value in it.
I would always say however post run never pre run! (and there's another argument in itself!)

Posted 1 year ago #
IanMunro - Member

I agree. I can't imagine prehistoric man going "Whoah there Mr. Sabretooth tiger! What's with the whole chasing thing? Can't you see I haven't done my pre-run warm up and stretches routine yet?"

Posted 1 year ago #
HTTP404 - Member

warm-up yes. warm-down yes.
stretching - never just before activity. never just after activity. done some on days off tho. when experimenting with aches and pains but it's not something I'd advocate religiously. If it works, great - but if you can get away without it - even better.

Posted 1 year ago #
iDave - Member

stretching has a benefit if its something you do as a regular activity - not as part of a warm-up. better muscle range of movement enhances performance but you don't gain flexibility in the few minutes of a pre-run/ride warmup.

the recent hoo haa about barefoot running ignored the surfaces we have to run on. it might be worth doing when we all have access to a groomed grass/dirt trail with no sharp bobbins to stand on. totally irrelevant and wasteful research otherwise

Posted 1 year ago #
IanMunro - Member

I've been running bf on the snow, ice, pot hole strewn and gravel covered lanes outside my house since Christmas without any problems. You get the occasional little bit of flint lodged in your foot, but it's not as traumatic as you might imagine. Feet have got a long way to go before there good for off-road though.

Posted 1 year ago #
HTTP404 - Member

the recent hoo haa about barefoot running ignored the surfaces we have to run on

You're missing the point. It's not about the surface under the foot.

better muscle range of movement enhances performance

In reality that's not really true - unless you're into gymnastics.

Posted 1 year ago #
al_f - Member

HTTP404 - Member
In reality that's not really true - unless you're into gymnastics.

Hmm...

Hurdler who can't lift their leg high enough - hits hurdles, goes slower, poorer performance.
Anyone doing a power sport (e.g. javelin) who can't use full range of muscle movement = less power = poorer performance.
Cyclist with poor low back flexibility = can't ride for as long because it gets sore = poorer performance.

I'm sure there are a lot of others as well.

Posted 1 year ago #
iDave - Member

You're missing the point. It's not about the surface under the foot.

surface is very much the point - you have to run somewhere, so whether or not BF running is 'better' is irrelevant unless you have a large bowling green to hand/foot

Posted 1 year ago #
molgrips - Member

This forefoot running business sounds interesting (might solve the back issues?), but I've done some reading that suggests unless you're pretty quick, it's not worth bothering with?

Not read the thread, but:

Toe running (or at least putting more weight on my toes) helped me go from absolutely terrible to merely unfit. When running I used to think that I was going to explode and die, it was awful. Now I just feel tired, which is much much better.

Also, I don't know if anyone's said this, but get properly fitted for shoes at a specialist running shop. Big big difference with the comfort and aching body parts.

I agree. I can't imagine prehistoric man going "Whoah there Mr. Sabretooth tiger! What's with the whole chasing thing? Can't you see I haven't done my pre-run warm up and stretches routine yet?"

Hah. Prehistoric man died age 35 with a whole raft of terrible injuries. And chances are he didn't much care about his 10km personal best either.

Posted 1 year ago #
HTTP404 - Member

Everybody runs somewhere (regardless of barefoot or trainers). So with reference to the OP - it's not about whether barefoot running is 'better' - it's about foot strike. And barefoot running has always been an argument for a "natural" forefoot strike. Eliminating surface it becomes about posture and technique.

al_f - There's a lot of literature for and against static stretching (in particular). It can introduce mobility into joints, ligaments, tendons that would not ordinarily be there which could then increase the chances of injury.

Cyclist with poor low back flexibility = can't ride for as long because it gets sore = poorer performance.

With that example, I am not even sure you know what the point of stretching is supposed to be.

Posted 1 year ago #
DPM - Member

Wow, interesting thread, especially as after 11+ years of riding I keep dabbling (unsuccessfully) with running. A couple of years ago, I put on an old pair of cheap trainers, and being bike fit I started heading out this time of year 2/3 times a week, until I developed an excruciating sharp pain which ran up he back of one calf. I guessed I’d tried to do too much too soon. I packed it up for the year.

Last year I decided to have another go, but this time went and got fitted out with decent running shoes, at a running shop, tried a few evenings of really slow ‘trots’ around the block (about 3km), and as soon as I tried to increase the pace or length at all (week 3ish) I again developed same pain. My shiny new shoes are now collecting dust.

It’s that time of year again and I’m once again considering whether to try again.

I’m interested in the discussion about warming up vs stretching. What constitutes ‘warming up’?

And anyone else get the same type of pain (it feels like a really taut wire being stretched through the middle of your calf)?

Posted 1 year ago #
stever - Member

In comparison running just seems very hard work, slow, painfull and frankly pointless.

See that now rather sets you up for failure doesn't it?

Hard work - Yes, that's a good thing.
Slow - I've overtaken plenty of cyclists in the woods. I don't know who was more embarrassed.
Painful - in a nice way. Unless you're doing it wrong.
Pointless - that's the point though isn't it? Doing something pointless, well has it's own reward. Kinda like riding a bike and ending up back where you started.

Anyway, yes, start small. Build slowly, blah blah. HAVE SOME FUN.

Posted 1 year ago #
al_f - Member

HTTP404 - Member
al_f - There's a lot of literature for and against static stretching (in particular). It can introduce mobility into joints, ligaments, tendons that would not ordinarily be there which could then increase the chances of injury.

As far as I know there's no conclusive evidence that it does cause injury though, unless you've got a reference that says it does? Be genuinely interested to see it if you have.

With that example, I am not even sure you know what the point of stretching is supposed to be.

I suppose I should have said hip/gluteal flexibility as well, although if you have a localised lower back problem like sacroiliac joint dysfunction that's reducing that joint's ROM on one side and causing pain after pedalling for a long time then targetted stretching/mobility exercises are going to reduce that and improve performance, aren't they?

As an aside, the points about prehistoric man not needing to stretch are moot, I think, because prehistoric man didn't sit at a desk all day with poor posture making him less flexible, so he didn't need to stretch.

Posted 1 year ago #
HTTP404 - Member

http://www.runnersforum.co.uk/general-training-race-tactic-discussion/5598-efficient-running-styles.html

http://www.posetech.com/training/archives/cat_flexibility.html

and of course do read the free Gordon Pirie book.
a fair bit older in terms of style and ideas but still a good read.
http://www.williamsichel.co.uk/documents/Running_Fast_and_Injury_Free.pdf

As an aside, the points about prehistoric man not needing to stretch are moot, I think, because prehistoric man didn't sit at a desk all day with poor posture making him less flexible, so he didn't need to stretch.

Pirie uses the example of race horses not needing to stretch before a race.
Anyway, there's a difference between flexibility and stretching if you read into the POSE technique of running.

hip/gluteal flexibility as well, although if you have a localised lower back problem like sacroiliac joint dysfunction

You might as well ask, will stretching help my running if I have one leg shorter than the other?

Posted 1 year ago #
surfer - Member

What constitutes ‘warming up’?

From the door I simply run very slowly and get gradually faster over the first mile or so then slow down in the last 1/2 mile.
Only increase the speed when you feel ready for it. Run till your eye balls pop the rest of the way then slow down near the end.
Simples

Posted 1 year ago #
al_f - Member

HTTP404: Thanks, interesting stuff and will have a read later, but I was kind of meaning peer-reviewed clinical trials rather than anecdotal reports on forums/commercial websites.

The Pirie book is interesting and has some good bits but has a bit too much "this guy I know ignored my training advice and now he has diabetes" rubbish in it which hurts the credibility of the rest IMHO. I guess it's the same as everything, pick out the good bits.

Posted 1 year ago #
surfer - Member

You might as well ask, will stretching help my running if I have one leg shorter than the other?

As an aside Cruz (olympic 800m Gold medalist and 1:41 runner) had one leg significantly shorter than the other. By significantly I mean over 1" IIRC.
I am sure they were queing up to shoe horn him into special shoes with orthotics etc. I am not aware he did anything but allow his body to gradually adjust.

Posted 1 year ago #
surfer - Member

The Pirie book is interesting and has some good bits but has a bit too much "this guy I know ignored my training advice and now he has diabetes" rubbish in it which hurts the credibility of the rest IMHO. I guess it's the same as everything, pick out the good bits.

Pirie was an exceptional talent however some of his views were very strange.

Posted 1 year ago #
HTTP404 - Member

As an aside Cruz (olympic 800m Gold medalist and 1:41 runner) had one leg significantly shorter than the other.

Apparently he was fast only in the clockwise direction ...

al_f - yes, definitely pick out what works for you. I keep an open mind about these things and am in awe at the speed/pace of top marathon runners (twice my pace!). Long past my prime, short legs and dodgey knees - I need to squeeze out every ounce of performance.

Posted 1 year ago #
molgrips - Member

Hard work - Yes, that's a good thing.
Slow - I've overtaken plenty of cyclists in the woods. I don't know who was more embarrassed.
Painful - in a nice way. Unless you're doing it wrong.

Hahahaha... see, there are some folk that are good at running, and some that aren't. The ones that are just cannot understand how terrible an experience it can be for those that are not.

Of course we know about the enjoyment of hard physical work, we are cyclists. There's good hard work and bad hard work.

Running for me, and some others on here I guess, is just murder. I'd cycle up Alp d'Huez with a big grin on my face, but running for half an hour is extremely unpleasant.

I am trying to do it more so that I can be better at it.. but simply saying 'have some fun' really marks you out as the former category

Posted 1 year ago #
IanMunro - Member

I know what you mean molgrips. Up to last year running was something I did to achieve something else rather than something that gave enjoyment in itself, it was a chore with the occasional glimpse of something nice but mostly a chore which I couldn't understand why people enjoy it. I had a feeling that people who said they liked it were probably deluding themselves, in much the same way that people who think vegetables taste fantastic.
Now I really enjoy it, I'm still crap at it but love it! Dunno what's changed though, so not very helpful for you

Posted 1 year ago #