Viewing 36 posts - 1 through 36 (of 36 total)
  • Rubbish English "open access land" rules
  • thecaptain
    Free Member

    It’s crap, isn’t it?

    Found a lovely loop through the Forest of Bowland area, part of which does have access rights (north end of Salter Fell road) and part of which runs along on a well made gravel road which makes a lovely loop round the south of Ward’s Stone and then out to Littledale (and hence back to Salter to complete the loop). It’s hardly gnar central, in fact it’s technically easy under-wheel but has great views and some stiff climbs. (It’s also the only area of off-roading within riding distance of home. Thank spaghetti monster, I’m moving somewhere with better riding soon.)

    So recently one morning we went and did it, knowing that we didn’t have access rights, but assuming that no-one could possibly care about a couple of cyclists pottering along a gravel road. Of course, some gamekeepery type in a land rover did stop us and say that we shouldn’t be there. He was nice enough about it, and it was right near the end of the ride (so there was no alternative to us just carrying on) but honestly, the whole situation is just a load of toss. We weren’t doing any harm, there wasn’t any conceivable way that we could cause harm (in any way that a pedestrian wouldn’t), it’s just a **** grouse moor and it’s not shooting season.

    I know that in practical terms, the landowners have no real recourse anyway. But why should they even have the right to say “you shouldn’t be here”? I’m not really trying to rant, more just sad about this pathetic state of affairs. If anyone ever wanted to do a mass trespass a la Kinder Scout, I’d be all for it. Or I suppose we can just continue to tug our forelocks, pretend not to know the rules, and hope to get away with it (as we did today).

    mactheknife
    Full Member

    I thankfully live in Scotland and its very easy to take it for granted, a few of my riding mates went to New Zealand this winter and they have a lot of the same issues as yourself. Absolutely no access to most of the land and great trails.

    Its the old vicious cycle though. If you do trespass and say “bugger it” then the situation just gets worse and worse.

    Only recently have i really come to appreciate how good we have got it in Scotland. How the hell it happened i don’t know but i love it.

    gaz552
    Free Member

    Is the large majority of this not due to liability reasons..?
    I.e. someone falls on their head and then sue the landowner.

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    thecaptain
    Free Member

    No it’s nothing to do with liability. It’s just get-off-my-landism.

    grilla
    Free Member

    The laws around land access in England are offensive, and land owners frankly make up these stories about liability etc. The fact that to our north they have adopted to prioritise the rights of people above those of the landowners only makes it more galling.

    There’s a farm trail running along the Chiltern Way footpath near me, a couple of times I’ve been ask to not cycle it. When I asked what possible damage it caused the landowner said he was being sued by a woman who had been injured by another cyclist who he should have prevented being there. It was clearly a blatant lie.

    Personally I’ve decided I’m not going to do anything that would cause harm to landowners or other users of trails, but I’m not going to follow these laws. I won’t cycle paths when they are soft, I will avoid popular footpaths, and I’ll ensure my speed always allows me to avoid pedestrians.

    br
    Free Member

    Only recently have i really come to appreciate how good we have got it in Scotland. How the hell it happened i don’t know but i love it.

    Yep. Moved up 2 years ago, brill isn’t it.

    Plus no one seems to have a real problem with us opening up new routes (as long as you avoid houses/gardens/farms etc) – which is one of the reasons why the Tweed Valley is teeming with MTB trails and events such as the Enduro World Series can be held here.

    Brainflex
    Full Member

    boo hoo, someone has something and I want to use it, waa waa. When all you bleaters open your doors to the homeless and less fortunate then you can cry about someone not letting you on their property. Bet you all be the first to cry foul if someone started using your garden as a shortcut.

    TheFlyingOx
    Full Member

    Heh. I take it your username was chosen ironically.

    epicyclo
    Full Member

    When you consider previous generations were compulsorily enslaved and sent to die in the mud of Flanders for freedom, you’ve got to wonder whose freedom they died for.

    Then remember that access is a right that has been stolen over the centuries.

    Thankfully I live in Scotland.

    thecaptain
    Free Member

    Brainflex, Ta for flexing your brain on this knotty issue, I hope you didn’t bend it too far. I’m sure you’re aware that gardens have nothing to do with it, this is open uncultivated moorland, in fact I think cultivation is at least discouraged and perhaps even prohibited. Furthermore, it is owned by what used to be a public utility, and I do have the right to access it. But as soon as I dare to do so on a bicycle, gamekeepers turn up with gerroffmoilaand. Bonkers.

    fitnessischeating
    Free Member

    I was told off the other day for riding a footpath… In Scotland….

    Most of my riding is in the peak, and it’s very rare that I encounter any problems, in fact I usually see many more walkers on the bridal ways than the footpaths.

    I just don’t understand, I get that we aren’t supposed to, but not why….

    Some people seem to be offended just by your presence on a bike, even when you are allowed to be there, miserable gets.. I try to kill them with kindness, smile, and wish them a nice walk.

    It is tempting to engage them with a discourse on how, it is not a criminal offence, it’s trespass, and they would not have access to the land they are on, had the mass trespass of walkers/climbers not occurred, the relative environmental impact, and the considerate manner that I and most I know try to take round walkers

    I suspect that I would only be wasting my breath

    matther01
    Free Member

    Scotland was great for that…must look to move back at some point (unless they rebuild Hadrian’s Wall next year) 😉

    jimw
    Free Member

    Start of pedantry
    Most of Hadrian’s wall is tens of miles south of the Scottish Border, especially at the eastern end. Therefore rebuilding the wall will trap a lot of Cumbria and most of Northumberland North of the “border”
    End of pedantry

    fasgadh
    Free Member

    The country north of Hadrian’s Wall also has rubbish access laws. It is called England.

    The pathetic scraps of access (on foot) were gained through folk saying “bogger it” and just doing it. Sitting back and hoping for concessions from our overlords will gain the same progress as it has done for most of the time since 1066 – ie none.

    onehundredthidiot
    Full Member

    Some land owners still try to stop you in Scotland. Most own vast areas and are well spoken.
    I was at a mtb leaders course south of the border and told there are only two places you can’t ride in Scotland. He wouldn’t listen when I said that wasn’t exactly true.

    FFJA
    Free Member

    With reference to the OP it is the season where the grouse chicks are at their most vulnerable to being disturbed in their broods, from the point of view of an ex gamekeeper, shooting season would actually be a better time to go, the young grouse are up and about flying better then.

    Singlespeed_Shep
    Free Member

    I don’t think it would work as well in England. There just isn’t the respect for others.

    There are lots of people who genuinely would respect wildlife and farmland. But then there are the daily mail reading cows shouldn’t be in field crew who will cause damage/disruption.

    With reference to the OP it is the season where the grouse chicks are at their most vulnerable to being disturbed in their broods, from the point of view of an ex gamekeeper, shooting season would actually be a better time to go, the young grouse are up and about flying better then.

    +1 Its a major income to some areas. My local area receives a good income from the hunting/shooting crew.

    seadog101
    Full Member

    This is ridiculous situation. On the access land, AFAIK, you can trample along to your hearts content, as long as you don’t get stupid and walk in front of a bunch of chaps in tweed with guns. Yet, ride along a track carved through the heather by tractor and Landrover, and you’re in bother.

    I’ve nothing against the hunting and shooting, good income for the local economy, and keeps the moor land managed, and to some degree, protected.

    chakaping
    Free Member

    Its the old vicious cycle though. If you do trespass and say “bugger it” then the situation just gets worse and worse.

    Disagree.

    Possession is 9/10s of the law as they say. Keep acting as though we already have the laws that should exist, and we have more chance of getting them.

    igm
    Full Member

    On one of our Tuesday night rides, the landowner/ farmer wandered over as we searched for the footpath, that technically we shouldn’t have been riding, and pointed out where it was.
    Cheery wave and everyone got on with there day.
    Near Kippax if anyone knows it.
    So it can work in England. That said I’m Scots so the guy probably though it was easier to point me at the exit than spend an hour or so explaining that in England people aren’t free to go about their business untroubled. 😉

    legend
    Free Member

    Singlespeed_Shep – Member
    I don’t think it would work as well in England. There just isn’t the respect for others.
    There are lots of people who genuinely would respect wildlife and farmland. But then there are the daily mail reading cows shouldn’t be in field crew who will cause damage/disruption.

    Scotland has the same **** to decent ratio as England, in fact it’s probably worse. Nothing there that makes you special I’m afraid

    Nipper99
    Free Member

    So you can leave your inner tubes / energy bar / gel packaging / drinks bottles over an ever wider area – least being confined to trail centres its easier to clear up after you.

    fasgadh
    Free Member

    Funny enough, you don’t tend to find much of this sort of litter beside the track in the free world. Reminds me of the pathetic argument I heard once in the 1980s a certain big landowner (Bowland, Cheshire, Reay, W London and too many other places) justify chasing everyone off Bowland because of the litter chucked from cars on the Trough Road. Excuses!

    deadkenny
    Free Member

    Ha, you should see the mess in Swinley! It’s worse since it became a trail centre 😉

    Singlespeed_Shep
    Free Member

    Scotland has the same **** to decent ratio as England, in fact it’s probably worse

    Maybe so but the greater population vs amount of land available creates a greater chance of issues arising.

    Nothing there that makes you special I’m afraid

    No idea what you trying to say here.

    I’m not against it in the slightest, just think it needs setting up proper and a “Darwin” clause for landowners.

    MrSmith
    Free Member

    I don’t have a problem with prohibiting access, why should you be allowed to roam over somebody else’s property? Obviously footpaths/bridle ways are fair game but I fail to see why landowners should make an exception for you because you want to ride your bike on their land?

    br
    Free Member

    I don’t have a problem with prohibiting access, why should you be allowed to roam over somebody else’s property? Obviously footpaths/bridle ways are fair game but I fail to see why landowners should make an exception for you because you want to ride your bike on their land?

    I’d have some sympathy for that position if it wasn’t for the fact that an awful lot of it has been grabbed/given-by-the-king over the centuries.

    DM article, but it’s an easy read (for someone who doesn’t actually understand how we are in this position) 🙂

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1328270/A-Britain-STILL-belongs-aristocracy.html

    And some of it occurred quite recently (in land terms):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclosure_Acts

    badllama
    Free Member

    FFJA has it I’m a ex-gamekeeper as well, all be it lowland.

    It’s the distubance factor (nesting ground game) and maybe your safety as well.

    We used high powered rifles day to day around the estate in 12,000 acres of private forestry and farmland (one foot path 1/2 a mile from our main wood, which was 800 acres alone ) an on one occasion I had red socks walk into the view down my scope 😯

    Right in the middle of the main wood how the **** they got there god knows. It was only when they got within 25 yeards of me and I threw the bags hide I was in off me did they see me and shit themselves.

    I ended up giving them a lift back down to where they should have been they were that far away from the footpath 🙄

    .223 and .308 rounds do not take prisoners once released.

    chakaping
    Free Member

    You keep on doffing that cap then Mr Smith.

    😆

    big_n_daft
    Free Member

    It’s the distubance factor (nesting ground game) and maybe your safety as well

    this isn’t helped as where you have people you get dogs who have a significant negative impact on fragile ecologies and wildlife

    in my view it’s about “managed” responsible access, e.g. discourage bog trotting, encourage on hardened trails, discourage through the middle of ground nesting birds, encourage around those areas

    access brings people that improves local economies, it just needs to be done responsibly with everyone being nice to each other 🙂

    thecaptain
    Free Member

    Several of you are missing the point that I’m talking about land where I already have access. I could wander aimlessly around across the moors wearing a dark green cagoule with beige trousers covering my obligatory red socks, how can riding a bike along ugly great gravel roads possibly be either worse for the little fluffy baby grouse (we did see a few, aww cute) or greater risk of being mistaken for a deer?

    As for the population density, we didn’t see a single member of the public all day, apart from a single runner heading up the track just as we were leaving. We were certainly outnumbered by the people working there, whose vehicles amounted to several landovers and JCBs. They were building another great big “lunch hut” tastefully slap bang in the middle of the hillside (to add to those already in existence) – I’m all for sensible and sustainable development, but it puts the ecological damage argument in context…

    mactheknife
    Full Member

    chakaping – Member
    Its the old vicious cycle though. If you do trespass and say “bugger it” then the situation just gets worse and worse.
    Disagree.

    Possession is 9/10s of the law as they say. Keep acting as though we already have the laws that should exist, and we have more chance of getting them.

    I totally see your point, mine was based on my opinion that opening up land requires delicate talks and negotiation, especially from the people who want the access.
    I kitesurf quite a bit as well as mince on a bike and it is another area which highlights our northern rights over Englands. We again have access to all beaches as long as we act responsibly. One beach in England, Hayling i believe, it actually owned by the bowling club, so they negotiated access by setting up a club and to gain entry to the beach you had to join, it was all run by enthusiastic volunteers.

    Just cracking on regardless would have had the beach completely cut off for everyone. Thats not a winning situation.

    towzer
    Full Member

    Just FYI on England

    http://www.naturalengland.gov.uk/ourwork/access/rightsofway/prow/default.aspx

    bear in mind the ramblers actually have 100%+ (100% access to ALL tracks plus coastal path + r2r in limited places in England)

    for me I’d like to see a massive change in the footpath/bridleway ratio – which I genuinely see as being unreasonable – preferably with a large % of footpaths being upped to foot+cycle only way, mainly as a horse requires the removal of all stiles/certain gate types etc etc and whilst it is a pain on a bike it can be got round – but has financial implications for any actual upgrades – though a move towards ‘sensible’ gates etc would be an improvement.

    I ride sensible cheeky all the time, and 98% of the time it’s not an issue, however it would be great to have a wider legal choice.

    Moses
    Full Member

    If the owners of grouse moors weren’t getting subsidies at £55/ hectare then i could see their point. But we are paying them a ridiculous amount to make the land infertile, so we should have access where it won’t cause damage.

    coastkid
    Free Member

    After the big vote in Scotland i guess we can cross over the border and go ride where we feel free? 😀 err do that anyway 😆

    neilthewheel
    Full Member

    The landowning classes are instinctively conservative and assume the worst of any attempt to extend access. Those of us who remember the discussions surrounding CROW Act will know that organisations such as the CLA arguing the collapse of civilisation would follow the introduction of a right to roam. Some of their predictions included:
    Widespread environmental damage
    A rural crimewave as ne’erdowells used their right to be in the countryside to scope out potential targets for theft and burglary.
    People camping in country dwellers’ gardens.
    When the maps were being drawn up there was an expensive, extended consultation process with landowners challenging every application. In some cases, landowners ploughed up moorland because they had heard that cultivated land would be excluded. Yes, this really happened.
    As thecaptain says, you never see anyone out there. I was riding today over the moors above Weardale, all open access, and saw nobody except on the Waskerley Way, the old railway line which forms part of the C2C. The impact of allowing cycle access to all upland paths and tracks would be similarly negligible.

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