Having read the Rohloff claims, I gather the drag is present in the freewheel but not when being pedalled.
I guess the test for that is remove the chain & spin the wheel by hand?
I also read that the 14 speeds offer the same equivalent range as a 3x9 derrie set-up but that is clearly with bigger steps between gears..
I guess trying one is indeed the best suggestion.
I gather the drag is present in the freewheel but not when being pedalled.
I would expect the reverse - a freewheel is a simple thing compared to the umpteen spinning epicyclic cogs in the hub - apart from gear 11 which is 1:1 with them all locked up...
marge - there is a lot of overlap and duplication with 3x9 gears - a rohloff is evenly spaced and has the same number of usable / non duplicated gears
I think my Rohloff has more actually usable gears than a 3X9 setup
Yes, most 3x9 setups only have 17 or 18 gears that aren't duplicated when on a different chainring*
I sometimes change up 2 at a time on the Rohloff & have never felt that the gap between ratios is to much (13.6% on the Rohloff)
The drag is present on a new hub & shows up as the pedals turning slowly as you wheel the bike along but this soon goes as they bed in & I've not noticed it when pedaling, I think a lot of it is in the mind 
A Rohloff acctually becomes more efficient as it wears & a derailleur system less.
* duplicated meaning so close that you can't tell the difference when pedalling (I think 5% is the numerical value used)
I think my Rohloff has more actually usable gears than a 3X9 setup
total speedhub range 5.19:1
44:11 / 22:34 = 6.18:1
i'd probably sit tight for now. there's a new alfin in the pipeline. It's going to be 11 speed with a wider ratio than current Alfin.
Also claimed to be lighter and smoother rolling. may make it a viable alternative to Rohloff.
The cranks turning as you wheel the bike along is due to seal drag, this reduces through use.
The drag felt while pedaling is due to the engaging or not of the cogs inside, this reduces as the hub runs in (and you also get used to it).
As mentioned there are benefits and drawbacks to these hubs the balance of which depends on your requirements, if you want fit and forget gears in grim trail conditions this is an amazing bit of kit.
trout, you interested in a part-ex for some bike light technology?
This is quite an interesting read...
For the ratio geeks - needs some more work as I haven't looked at since building it with a fellow forum member a few months ago.
I've used the Alfine for two winters and would love to try a Rolhoff. The Rolhoff seems like a great peice of engineering.
The Alfine was on my winter bike and has worked well. It does drag a bit but in the winter mud - who cares? The problems for me with the Rolhoff are the cost of the hub and the cost of a specific frame. My afline is on a £120 slot inbred and before Shimano went price increase crazy, it was a great deal. Overall the costs were a fraction (1/6?) of the Rolhoff+frame price.
In terms of spread of gears. I hardly ever use a granny on my triple chainset gear bikes and hence I find that the 32x18 set up is fine with me. Around the Surrey hills I'm never overgeared. In the Alps or somewhere similar I can see the advantages of the Rolhoff extra gears.
At the end of this winter I'm going to give the Afline an oil bath change and it will be interesting to see if this makes it smoother/less draggy.
Having now had a rohloff for three years I have come to the following conclusion:
on a hard tail (EBB or slidy dropouts) ie no tensioner it is a no-brainer for me the gear shifting part of it is awesome, I've got used to the technique and the gripshift, though I still prefer trigger shift.
On a full sus, needing tensioner, I'm now going back to normal set up as the advantages in mud are not really there, you still get chain slip over the sprocket, and the chain bounces off and you can't give a quick flick of the mech to re-seat it.
I love the product, but the tensioner means you have the same issues as with a derailieur.
Rohloff as a company are brilliant, helpful, knowledgeable and could give many others a lesson in how customer service should be..
Andy
and the chain bounces off and you can't give a quick flick of the mech to re-seat it.
do you have the front chain guide ? I found the chain fell off without it...
I'm a Rohloff owner and have written quite a bit about my positive experiences with the hub I have.
I can't quite get my head around the 'drag' that is allegedly felt by people. Quite how you can actually feel that when riding is beyond me. If you spin the wheel in a workstand then you'll see the cranks rotating, and I've read this is due to the tightness of the seals. If you pedal it in the workstand I can't detect the same thing. So from my highly scientific test I deduce that it makes bugger all difference and that if there is any 'drag' its going to be felt only when you're on terrain where you can afford to freewheel..... so not somewhere it is going to make a blind bit of difference.
The Rohloff really excels in muddy conditions where it rides just the same as it would in the dry. No gear slipping or graunching, no ripped off mech hangers etc etc. I would like to know the efficiency of a derailleured drivetrain with chain and jockey wheels covered in crap. Not that good I'd imagine.
I don't know you Trout but from your light threads I would suggest that you might enjoy having a fine piece of engineering connected to the back of your bike. Check this video out for a bit of manufacturing porn
I can't quite get my head around the 'drag' that is allegedly felt by people. Quite how you can actually feel that when riding is beyond me.
As a real low tech example I always struggled to keep up with some riders when I had the Hoff fitted. Then when I went back to normal gears on the same bike I was able to open up quite a big gap on the same riders. This happend quite a few times after my getting rid of the Hoff.
The place I noticed it the most was on none techy long draggy climbs. Folks would just cruse by me. Then i'd catch and pass them again on techy climbs. I don't seem to have this problem any more.
With all due respect singlespeedstu I am suprised that the hub could make such a big difference if my own hub is anything to go by.
You could look at it the other way though annd remark on how "I noticed that I was able to ride past people in the mud with jammed drivetrains etc".
I ride both Rohloff and 'normal' gears and I can't say I have ever felt like the hub was giving that magnitude of resistance/loss. That is only based on my own experience though.
In perfect weather with a new or nearly new derailleur drivetrain the Rohloff is probably not quite as efficient. Certainly for my own riding that particular set of conditions is pretty rare.
With all due respect singlespeedstu I am suprised that the hub could make such a big difference
It made enough of a difference for other folks to notice and tell me too....
You could look at it the other way though annd remark on how "I noticed that I was able to ride past people in the mud with jammed drivetrains etc".
That's what singlespeeds are for.
I don't miss my Hoff in the slightest.
I rode my derralieur bike again for 2 weeks over xmas, and it was brilliant to get back on the Rohloff afterwards.
The resistance of a well bedded in Rohloff one is very low. For me, the accurate fast gear changes more than makes up for a miniscule bit of drag which I don't notice anyway.
I find I can get more power down to the trail out of the Rohloff than than I can with D'ers. Gear changes are so reliable, I forget I'm doing it and am always spinning at the right cadence. On the d'er I find a I'm spending a much larger percentage of the time backing off the power to munch through the cogs, or switching the front end in a tricky spot, or fixing ghost shifts. None of that happens with the Rohloff, and I definitely go faster on it than on the d'er bike.
Wow some good info on this thread Thanks .
anyone got some pics close up of one installed on their bike .
just wondering if I can make some sliding dropouts for the pace frame I have .
Hub gearing calculator...For the ratio geeks - needs some more work as I haven't looked at since building it with a fellow forum member a few months ago.
If ANYBODY wants the excel spreadsheet that provides all the calculations and information behind this web page, for their own purpose and to mess about with, then email me... Email addy is in profile. This will dispel any of the myths and the bollox talked about Alfine or Rohloff gear ratios, what "equivalent" ratios you're running, what speeds you're capable of and everything else you care to mention... It won't make you a cup of tea though sadly, I couldn't quite work out how to get an excel spreadsheet to do that I'm afraid! It does everything else though...
Just to clarify, Rohloff gearhub offers a 526% gear range. A "normal" 27speed mtb with 22/32/44 chainrings and an 11-32 casette, offers a 580% gear range. A Rohloff DOES NOT offer a full 27 speed setup equivalent. Essentially you miss 2 gears. It gives you the equivalent of approximately a 25 speed setup, how you gear the chainring/rear cog combo is up to you, and will decide whether it's at the top end, or the bottom end of the gear range, where these 2 gears you miss happen. Or indeed one either end. Truthfully though, how often do you end up in big ring and either 8th or 9th sprocket on an MTB though? Hence for 99.99% of MTBer's, a Rohloff is as good as a full 27spd setup gear ratio wise.
Rohloffs have a LOT of drag though when new, certainly until they've been well bedded in. What Singlespeedstu describes about his experiences running a Rohloff are pretty similar with my own experience trying one out, but also that of other users I have known. The Rohloff equipped bike I tried (hub was literally less than 50 miles old) felt like riding with an almost flat tyre in the lower gears when compared with a derrailleur geared bike...
The current 8spd Alfine hub (man am I looking forward to that 11spd one!) has a gear range of 306%... This is as near as dammit close to running a single 11-34T cassette with a single ring, depending on the chainring/cog combo you run. Gear ratios are slightly broader than an 11-32 cassette hence to most people it gives slightly more ratios than an equivalent 1x9 setup. If you were to compare it to a 22/32 dual chainring setup with a 11-32 cassette out back though (a typical 2x9 setup) you will miss the easiest gear (22/32) and the two hardest gears (32/11 and 32/12) typically, though obviously this is dependent on your chainring and cog fitted. Personally for me, in the winter time, this is more than enough of a gear ratio spread though I can envisage some spinning out on my Alfine bike come the summer. But then come the summer, I also have bikes with derrailleurs on which will likely get used some more again.
In my experience, the Alfine barely has any extra friction/drag than a normal derrailleur geared bike setup. Certainly I can barely notice anything on my Alfine hub that has now covered maybe 250 miles or so. Out of the box the seals felt tight, but get it on the bike, and certainly ride it once or twice, it feels fine. If there is any etra drag you won't really notice it (unless you've got a duff hub!).
Hope this clears up a few myths...
And like I said above, if anybody wants the maths and science behind everything I've just said above and more, then drop me an email and I'll be happy to email you my spreadsheet. I find that cold hard facts and figures are MUCH less likely to be debated than myths, hearsay, controversy and bulshit!
EDIT: Spreadsheet covers not only the Alfine, but the Rohloff too, as well as various other popular (or less popular) hub gears currently available on the market too.
The drag will depend very much on what gear you are in. Normally one gear will be direct drive and so as efficient as a single speed (ie. more so than a conventional dérailleur). Other ratios are achieved through epicyclic gearing which normally gives you 3 speeds. More speeds in a hub are achieved by linking several sets of 3-speed systems internally. The particular gear you have selected will determine how many gears are active and how much drag there is. A bigger difference in rotational speed between the sprocket and the wheel will also cause more drag (eg. through seal friction). Things like oil viscosity, wear and hub design will also make a big difference.
The friction means some of your effort is wasted and is most obvious when racing, doing an endurance event or riding at max power. If your wheels are spinning in mud or your dérailleur is getting jammed a bit of extra drag doesn't really matter.
I do like the idea of a hub gear, but the current products don't really suit my kind of riding. A dérailleur is cheap, efficient and easily fixed.
keppoch - Member
vorsprung,
What shifter are you using for the Alfine with drop handlebars?
I am using a normal Alfine trigger shifter, filed out to 24mm to fit on road bars
The latest on the drag after now 700km is that there is slightly less drag when in gear compared to new. It's true that the 5th gear (the direct drive one) seems more efficient
Note that I am on roads, with a commuter bike, tyres have minimal tread
Here's a pic of one of mine fitted, will be for sale soon might do a deal with a 7up light if you're interested.
I've also got some spare 18.5volt Lipo batteries 3 & 4 Ah
I'm often surprised by the piss-poor cable routing people use for Rohloffs 
My Rohloff page: http://www.bogtrotters.org/downloads/Rohloff/
Happy now?
I tried it a few different ways but the speedbone restricts the options, so I made a monkeybone out of a Hayes brake adapter.
Happy now?
slightly better 
anyone know how often an alfne should be serviced and what is involved. I have had mine for a year now and it has been faultless. seems a bit rude just to expect it to keep going with no love!....
lol@sfb coming out again. For those of you not up to speed, there's a photo of simonfbarnes riding through a large puddle (it's more like a lake, tbh ) up to the depth of his wheel hubs. Apparently this was used as sufficient reason for Rohloff not to repair his hub under warranty, as their warranty doesn't cover this kind of thing, and this has been a constant source of irritation for him!
Having said that, I've been here a while and don't think I've heard of anyone else who's had a similar problem.
I ran a Rohloff for a couple of years - it just makes sense to have all the gears inside away from the mud, grit and carp. I ran a singlespeed chain on a normal outer chainring, however as I had hardtail with 'normal' vertical dropouts I had to use a chain tensioner.
The gears themselves were fine, and worked exactly as they should. The constant spread of gears was excellent, and in practice, 14 gears meant losing one off either the top or the bottom of a standard 3x9 gear range. The main problems I had were to do with the d@mn chain constantly coming off, due to not having a singlespeed specific (or Rohloff specific) frame.
However, it never felt quite as fun as I'd hoped. While the overall weight was probably not much greater than a normal mech setup, the concentration of the weight at the rear gave it a very 'planted' feel - very solid, with good traction, but not whippy enough at the back for me. Obviously it's purely subjective, but when I went back to derailleurs on a Soda, the weight distribution just made it feel more how I preferred, with a back wheel happy to change direction quickly and come off the ground. Obviously the trade off is the cost in changing the drivetrain though.
Oh, and if you buy a secondhand Rohloff it should be looser than a new one (they take some running in), and you could see it as something of an investment - as long as it stays in good nick you won't lose much money on it if you decide to sell it.
Apparently this was used as sufficient reason for Rohloff not to repair his hub under warranty
untrue, they still fixed it But they did say they did not consider that to be mountain biking...
Sorry - my mistake But did they do it under warranty?
But did they do it under warranty?
yes - they suggested I change the oil every 3 months instead of 12, which extended its life from 10 months to 14 before crapping out...
I got my first Rohloff 2 weeks ago and so far I am loving it.
I guess barnes found the achilles heel of the RO gear hub. I have seen him state many times, that his Hope hubs and rear mech never suffer from riding through mini lakes. I think he gets some perverse pleasure from the fact he can trash a RO!
that his Hope hubs and rear mech never suffer from riding through mini lakes
also untrue, they only last around 6..9 months* before requiring new bearings - the difference being I can fit them myself in half an hour at a cost of £7 (rear) or £10 (front)
* freehub ~ 2 years
I think he gets some perverse pleasure from the fact he can trash a RO!
I get perverse pleasure from riding where the hell I like without concessions to my bike components :o)
This topic has been closed to new replies.
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