How many crashes do you get on your club runs?

I know my last club in the UK, ~100 active members and was purely a road club, about 6-7 organised groups going out a week, average about 15-18 riders per group, had maybe 10 tarmac eating incidents a year, of which possibly 2 required a hospital visit. Last year i rode with them it was one concussion and one collarbone, think that was 2001 or 02. Every time there was a crash or near miss there would be a little inquest type thing, what happened, why did it happen, what can we do to stop it happening again sort of thing. Club is now twice the size (and then some) and as far as i can tell from their facebook page/wedsite, the rate of crashes is still very similar.

Last club i rode with on the mainland (this is in the late 90’s) was about 600 strong, again, purely road. Probably 35 organised groups a week, some open groups, some closed, all the way from slow cafe stop pootles over 50 km to team led/motorpaced chaingangs 150+ km at race pace, absolute minimum of 20 riders usually 30+, big runs on a sunday would have nearer 80-100 and car support. Maybe 20-25 crashes a year, half a dozen hospital trips. Collar bones, concussions, and one leg from what i can recall. Same sort of process if there was any road incident. Club is now 2 clubs, knocking on 800 members between them, a touring/leisure section and a race section. Rate of crashes is broadly similar (but i can’t see parts of the facebook page as they are closed groups.)

Current club, utterly useless. 100-120 Active members, split evenly between road and MTB. Road club runs (3 a week) have about 20 riders, they’ve had NINE riders in hospital since the beginning of April, from 4 of the TEN CRASHES they’ve had. 2 of the guys will be out until the end of the year, at least……. One might not ride a bike again (Still in hospital after 3 weeks).
Number of crashes has increased this year, but has been broadly similar for 5 or 6 years prior. (15-20 crashes a year, maybe 10 hospital trips in 12 months)

Clubs response. “Cycling is dangerous, Shit happens”.

So how often do you have crashes on club runs, and what does the club do about them?

We have had one crash in the last 2 years. Guy that caused it was not a club member and is now banned from riding with us.
We do a mix of chain gangs, cafe rides etc
Cant see any reason why anybody would be crashing on a club ride

I think there’s been a big increase in crashes in the last year, due to new riders jumping straight into group rides, and fast chain gangs, with no idea how to ride in a group.

If you want to see carnage, go and check out a Cat 4 race. Team sky wannabees jumping straight into racing with no group riding experience, it is scary….

Change clubs…

I’ve not ridden with them for 4 years, only pay my subs for the insurance and so i can race. And TBH, there aren’t any alternatives within 70 km. (It’s actually 20 km from where i live to the club house)

And i’ve marshalled 3/4 races in the past. It’s carnage. Seen a couple of FB posts this year of 15+ rider pile ups, most likely caused by trying to sprint from 30th into the top 10…..

You get enough people doing enough mileage on enough poor roads, you are eventually going to have a wheel overlap, or someone hitting a pothole, or a manhole cover or something. It happens.

I witnessed one crash on a club run due to over exuberance on a roundabout and a touch of wheels, small club (30-40 members) this over 3-4 years of riding with them, there was one other crash but can’t remember the details but that happened at a race circuit, somebody else crashed in the Alps but that was a bizarre story of riding down a hotel car park ramp at 2mph and the cervelo forks breaking the morning of a sportive!
I also rode a fair bit with a small group of friends with no issues/crashes apart from me getting caught in a muddy puddle road edge and getting a bit sideways but I rode that out.

I wouldn’t ride with your club unless there was a group of members who obviously knew how to ride, this is also why I avoid UK sportives or ride London type events.

You get enough people doing enough mileage on enough poor roads, you are eventually going to have a wheel overlap, or someone hitting a pothole, or a manhole cover or something. It happens.

You seem to have answered your own question and cycling is dangerous, shit happens. I can’t see how crashes are inevitable for club riders not racing.

Been with my club for 11 months. 200+ people, 5-6 rides a week. 3 crashes:
2 in the cafe/mandatory beginner group both caused by new members not used to group riding (one of those was a newbie riding into a parked car. The other two newbies tapping each other);
the third when a crazy pedestrian jumped out in front of the group to talk to them

i used to ride my winter hub gear bike in the slow(inexperianced) groups with our club – although the majority could be educated -and thats what slow groups are for. there were how ever the ironmen triathletes who would talk about ironman at all occasions , would wear shorts at all occasions (to ensure IM tatt on display at all times) and would manage to cause pile ups at any kind of pace change within the group + not take on board any education.

felt like i was dicing with death every time.

We had one major incident near the end of a ride once the fast group caught the slow group on a downhill involving a broken neck a couple years back.

inexperianced rider dodging gravel and braking hard on a downhill at speed lead to rider behind going over the top

Last club I was in for at least 5 years I saw 1 crash involving one rider over cooking a descent and another as I went over the bars after a riderwent down on some gravel in front of me.

How so?Bigger clubs with more mileage/members/events have far far less crashes in the first place and then take measures to prevent further crashes. Current club just thinks cycling is dangerous, should just live with crippling members occasionally.

Except generally, it isn’t. Personally I’ve had probably less than 2 crashes a year since i started riding as a 10 year old/racing as an 11 year old. And that includes 14 or 15 years riding as a pro (so well over 15000km a year, mostly at speed and in very close proximity to others, and with very little knowledge or visibility of the road ahead). And another 10 or so riding elite/masters. And only a handful have involved any more than missing skin.

They aren’t inevitable, the risks stack up and eventually a combination of inexperience, lack of structure, stupidity, bad roads or whatever means that you have an accident.

If these crashes are happening on club runs then someone needs a serious word, you should be able to rack up thousands of miles without crashes if people pay attention and ride properly.

you are eventually going to have a wheel overlap, or someone hitting a pothole, or a manhole cover or something.

Even then a crash is far from inevitable, hitting a pothole is just a case of riding it out. Overlapping wheels again needn’t directly lead to a crash if people are aware and take appropriate action.

ghostlymachine, I literally have know idea what you are saying now. In separate posts you say they are inevitable and aren’t inevitable. I’m out

Jamiep, i suspect your poor reading skills and my poor english skills have met somewhere in the middle. Nowhere have I said crashes are inevitable, just that the eventual combination of circumstances mean that you will eventually have a reason for a crash. You might not actually have one, but there is a significant risk/reason.

Except this club seems to be unable to encourage anyone to take appropriate action. Or even to pay attention. So the tiniest issue becomes half a dozen riders sliding down the tarmac, or disappearing into the ditch.

The club I’m in has around 100 active riders to, I guess we have half a dozen crashes a year involving more than 1 rider, occasionally with a hospitalisation but nothing too serious so far touch wood. I’ve not actually witnessed one myself (I’ve had a few crashes myself but never involved anyone else, I tend to head off the front on descents or for fast/technical corners as that’s the most enjoyable bit for me, I hate braking downhill just because you’re sat in a bunch going at the pace of the slowest rider).

It’s absolutely the club’s responsibility to provide at least basic instructions on bunch riding for new members (inc. things like hand signals and what various shouts mean). No knowing what they should be doing = nervous rider = someone that overreacts and creates a dangerous situation

If someone does ride dangerously they’ll get told about it (although personally I think sometimes it’s done a bit too casually, no need to be a dick or try and embarrass someone but it needs to be clear that certain dangerous riding habits need to stop or they aren’t welcome on rides). We also all have CTC insurance so there’s liability cover if someone does cause a crash (although afaik no one’s ever claimed on it yet…).

Goes through peaks and troughs. We had a period where we seemed to have accidents all the time but I can’t remember the last club run crash so it is probably over 12 months.

For club riding and most training I see no reason that crashes should be inevitable. Racing is different but even then most can be avoided if people were riding better.

Having said that on club runs and training rides I pay attention to who is around me and only closely follow certain wheels. If the pace ramps up I try and sit on/near the front as it is generally safer there than with people struggling nearer the back.

I’m frankly surprised there aren’t more in the clubs near me.

Riders not holding lines on corners, using hand signals but with no ability to hold the line, shocking gear use which mean running out of legs on s climb before changing but usually the ones who power down the hill so when they slow the pack concertinas , folk sitting up in the middle of the sprint for the 30s (caused several crashes, one putting a fireman on restricted duties for over a year).

Too risky for me, I ride solo or with a couple of riders I trust.

I road ride for fitness and do one sportive a year. In the last one the sweeper caught me up, because I’m rubbish, and suggested we chain gang. This involved him sitting 2 cm off my front wheel and pointing out obstacles like potholes as they came up. He was a nice bloke doing a good job but I’m sorry, only one person looks after me on the road, moi. The whole idea of riding that close in large groups strikes me as an accident waiting to happen (or I might just be soft).

This involved him sitting 2 cm off my front wheel and pointing out obstacles like potholes as they came up.

If I asked for a tow from someone (or was towing someone along), that’s pretty much what I would hope from them.

I didn’t ask for a tow, he just squirted in front and assumed. In the long run it didn’t matter as his slowest pace still burnt me off (something to do with him coming fifth in the road 24hr champs – show off).

We’ve had a few in the past years. Sometimes taking out a front wheel on through and off, sometimes by hitting a wheel in front (keep your head up!). We’ve had one with a car that was not the fault of the group. We have sadly also had a death due to a pothole this year, in which I was very closely involved.

We give new riders instruction in group riding, make them ride in the beginners group in Saturdays and then pass them out to ride at whatever pace they desire.

Crashes do happen in group rides but they are unusual. Normally if my hands are covering the brakes, it’s not a very good group!

I didn’t ask for a tow, he just squirted in front and assumed.

Ah sorry, I misread your post. That’s pretty rude then…

he just squirted in front and assumed I could actually ride a road bike

FIFY

But seriously being able to hold a wheel is a basic skill for road riding. The person in front shouldn’t fall off, why would they?

folk sitting up in the middle of the sprint for the 30s

I struggle to understand why a club run would have bunch sprints, madness.

In separate posts you say they are inevitable and aren’t inevitable. I’m out

I thought he was saying crashes are possible (certainly not inevitable) but this particular club’s high crash stats and not wanting to address the issue is worrying. If you look at an incident and there doesn’t seem to be a root cause, it was just one of those things, then fair enough “shit happens”, but not to even look at the circumstances is bordering on the negligent.

(something to do with him coming fifth in the road 24hr champs – show off).

if he’s the sweeper he’ll be trying to get you back in a timely manner, unless he has serious ego issues then “burning off” someone who is struggling will be down to bad judgement/estimate of what you could manage rather than showing off.
<edit>all IMO, I have pretty limited roadie experience and not likely to get a whole lot more, sounds bloody dangerous 😉

Couldn’t make it up.
……….Facebook this morning, one of the guys has just had a trip to hospital after yet another crash.

Think he’s more worried about his completely destroyed bike. (some top end aero Specialised IIRC)

Mostly it isn’t, it really really isn’t. I’ve had years where i’ve ridden well over 20000km over all sorts of terrain and in all sorts of weather and not hit the deck once. And I’d guess that the vast majority of road riders are the same. Even when i have hit the deck, most of the time it’s just a few days with some bruising then a week picking bits of scab off.

Having seen some behaviour on sportives I’m in two minds.

1, It’s good for people to learn to ride in bunches and therefore not be a risk to themselves and others when they inevitably do some sort of event outside the club
2, Some people are just stupid or oblivious (I saw bloke shaking out a cramp presumably, weaving all over the road doing 30-40kmph less than people passing him on a descent) so the risk will be there no matter what

he just squirted in front and assumed I could actually ride a road bike

FIFY

No need for the fix Dragon; I don’t believe the definition of being able to ride is the assumption that everyone is familiar or comfortable with the accepted practices of others.

if he’s the sweeper he’ll be trying to get you back in a timely manner, unless he has serious ego issues then “burning off” someone who is struggling will be down to bad judgement/estimate of what you could manage rather than showing off.

You’re entirely right and he was helpful and friendly, just at a completely higher level of fitness than myself. In my defence the cut off time was 6 hours and I managed 4h 17m but the rest of the field was mainly made up of Royal Marines so I’ve only got myself to blame.

When I used to train for XC racing I rode in a bike road club saturday morning chain gang. Started as a couple of groups, 20 or so riders in each, super fast guys went first, all good and problems rare.

It all got very hairy when they opened a triathlete section, and those guys tried to join the the chain gangs. Fit as anything, ZERO bike handling skills. Carnage ensued. Big groups, falling apart, on their tri-bars (!!) etc. After one completely avoidable crash that I saw happening and couldn’t escape, that was the end for me. Risk started to trump reward.

I think the club concerned puts a bit more effort into road skills for members now, but they won’t appoint ride leaders, which would help immensely, as there are masses of lawyers in the club, and their position is that the rides are public and open to anybody not associated with the club, therefore they have no responsibility, or liability in the event on an incident. Nice ! And another reason to leave…

That’s probably why some of the facebook pages for the club i used to ride with are closed groups. Get some wobbly dickhead turning up to the club ride and bringing down some world tour pro and it’s not going to look good. So the only people in the group are those on the inside.

Should people be traveling as close as they do, at the speeds they do on public roads? Probably need not look further than they for the cause of the vast majority of crashes.

It used to be like an apprenticeship when you started road riding with a club. You were taught by older members about position, reading the road and conditions. Now a lot of people rock up with all the gear and half an idea.
That’s what can make a lot of sportive type events so dangerous ,you get a lot of people that may have done all their training on their own (see tri-athletes) then join in a group and cause chaos , it’s even worse if they are fit. I only ride fast and close with people that I know and trust.

We have sadly also had a death due to a pothole this year, in which I was very closely involved.

Whut? Sounds horrible.

Rare, only 1 recently which was down to a mechanical…crank arm off on a climb with the guy behind going into the back of him.

Can only think of one other a few years ago when someone sat up after thinking they’d missed a turn off, again guy behind not expecting it.

Generally feel much safer on a club ride or chain. As much as I enjoy the occasional sportive they seem to have their fair share of riders who obviously don’t ride in groups very often and aren’t aware of some of the consequencies of sitting up etc.

Not their fault, each to their own and all that – just leave plenty of room.

Read all of this with interest because my only experience of club rides has been bad. I’ve been out twice with a local club and was disappointed at the lack of direction and leadership; nobody seemed to be in overall charge of the ride and consequently it was fractured and ill-disciplined. On top of that I was embarrassed at the behaviour of a couple of riders towards drivers who got frustrated behind the group.

So I’ll stick with solo or riding with my son and my cycling buddy.

I *think* what’s maybe happened is that there’s been a huge surge in new members into many clubs. Loads of these people have very little experience of riding in groups. Years ago, the old hands would have had the confidence to issue a bollocking to a newbie who wasn’t sticking to his line, was jabbing the brakes, surging etc. And the newbie would have accepted that he’d done something wrong and had got a telling-off from someone with a basic right to tell him off.

But if half the club joined in the last 2 years and can’t ride in a bunch, the old hands understandably retreat from trying to enforce reasonable road discipline, identify who the dangerous people are and just try to stay away from them.

We have sadly also had a death due to a pothole this year, in which I was very closely involved.

Whut? Sounds horrible.[/quote]

It was awful and I won’t go into details due to any pending court case. That’s my bike and jersey (and photo) btw.

As I said, in our club all new riders serve an apprenticeship. You can be the fittest triathlete in South London, but you will still be riding with beginners until you can demonstrate good group riding skills (for which we provide coaching and a ride leader – with training). Only then can you graduate to skilled groups and Tuesday night club rides. We do give dispensation for experience in other clubs, of course. Ralph was an experienced rider who was a pleasure to ride with. It was a freak accident.

BigDummy – Member

I *think* what’s maybe happened is that there’s been a huge surge in new members into many clubs. Loads of these people have very little experience of riding in groups. Years ago, the old hands would have had the confidence to issue a bollocking to a newbie who wasn’t sticking to his line, was jabbing the brakes, surging etc. And the newbie would have accepted that he’d done something wrong and had got a telling-off from someone with a basic right to tell him off.

This ^ We’ve had a lot of new members over the last couple of years and I’d say half of them aren’t used to being told what to do in their lives at this point, so don’t take it well. That said, there are also an equal balance of new members who are a bit younger and will take on board information when told and try and put it into practice.
As for accidents; one on a chain gang in the last couple of years, and three over a bad winter a couple of years back on ice. Including myself.

Suggesting to a couple of inexperienced new members in a group of 20 that they might want to do this, that and the other to ensure group safety is one thing. Trying to tell half a dozen middle aged blokes who have spent the last three years scoring a million points on strava/sufferfest that they might want to do this that and the other will usually result in a string of swear words as they have a million points and a powermeter.

Yes, that was in quite a lot of the press over here, think there have been a couple recently. Has been an increasing risk over the last few years as road repairs are moved further and further down the priority list, and road loading increases (both numbers and physical wieght)

I *think* what’s maybe happened is that there’s been a huge surge in new members into many clubs. Loads of these people have very little experience of riding in groups. Years ago, the old hands would have had the confidence to issue a bollocking to a newbie who wasn’t sticking to his line, was jabbing the brakes, surging etc. And the newbie would have accepted that he’d done something wrong and had got a telling-off from someone with a basic right to tell him off.

But if half the club joined in the last 2 years and can’t ride in a bunch, the old hands understandably retreat from trying to enforce reasonable road discipline, identify who the dangerous people are and just try to stay away from them.

and

Trying to tell half a dozen middle aged blokes who have spent the last three years scoring a million points on strava/sufferfest that they might want to do this that and the other will usually result in a string of swear words as they have a million points and a powermeter.

+1 I’ve just got back into road riding in the last 12 months. I used to road ride with a club where I grew up and as above, for the first few rides ‘Old Ken’ used to follow me around and bark at me for every transgression. But there was a respect back then for your elders and betters and he was basically right. I then got into MTB’ing and left the road, and coming back to it 25 years later my observations are that roads are busier; far more bikes and cars, but driver behaviour is in general far better, while cyclists behaviour far worse.

By that I don’t just mean being abusive to drivers, but these unsafe practices, weaving around, overlapping wheels, trying to take selfies/go-pro while riding in a group, and so on. And the major difference is that if ‘Old Ken’ tries to suggest that what’s being done isn’t appropriate, he’s got a fair chance of being told to **** off rather than thanked for his wisdom nowadays.

Suggesting to a couple of inexperienced new members in a group of 20 that they might want to do this, that and the other to ensure group safety is one thing. Trying to tell half a dozen middle aged blokes who have spent the last three years scoring a million points on strava/sufferfest that they might want to do this that and the other will usually result in a string of swear words as they have a million points and a powermeter.

very much this^

i twice told the rider in front of me to ‘sit in’ as in our tight group of eight 2 abreast he was a foot further out than everyone else therefore i had to sit out as well as the rider behind me. after the second time he told me to ‘eff off’. thing is he was obviously not comfortable riding that close to somebody on his left but it’s perfectly safe and the people behind get the benefit of riding a group and not some random loose group spread across the road. i did eventually get an apology but some people take it personally when it’s actually better/safer for the group to ride in the same manner as everyone else.
every club has a squirrel though 🙂 dont be that person.

I’m repeating what everyone else has said, but riding in a group requires skills that have to be learned. Traditionally, you would start riding with a club as a junior, acquire those skills through practice and advice, and end up as a safe, competent rider. It takes time to do this, and to make bunch skills an instinctive part of your cycling; you can’t short circuit the process.

I think a number of people nowadays simply think you can just jump straight in, and there is nothing to learn about riding in a group. On a positive note, I know my club has a lot of coached juniors coming through who have fantastic bike skills that would shame a lot of their adult counterparts, so there is hope for the future.