Factory built Mavic Ksyrium Elite S, or H Plus Son Archetype on Hope RS Mono with Sapim D-Lights?

Think I prefer the latter, but I can pretty much buy a similar full bike build off the shelf with the Mavic’s for £150 less and maybe a couple of hundred grams lighter.

Thoughts?

My ksyriums have been superb. I think they are the SSC version (alu spokes). Probably a decade old. Rear was rebuilt around about then due to a serious impact and resulting buckling. Been excellent since. Used for racing rides where I was wanting to do a good pace for a few years then used for summer rides generally thereafter. Ridden Tour of flanders on them over cobbles and they were fine.

They have remained true and bearings are still smooth. If the newer ones are as good they are an excellent wheel.

Handbuilts, but save money, weight and noise and get some novatec hubs off ebay (branded as sokin, mrRide, or just generic 288g hub). Probably another 100g under the hope weight.

I’ve loved my Ksyrium Elites, very strong, stiff and light. But I hit a pothole and they didn’t fare well. I also love my handbuilts; Miche track hubs, Sapim laser spokes and Open Pros. I hit a pothole and split the Open Pro rim this week. The wheel is not round, but it stayed true and didn’t pinch flat. Rim is being replaced with another Open Pro.

Kysyrium are being replaced with a nice pair of high end handbuilts for general riding to complement the carbon low profiles I use for racing. For general riding, it’s handbuilts for me now, every time.

There is more to ride quality than a 100g weight saving. Choose some light tyres and add Conti race inner tubes – that will save a 100g a wheel.

Archetypes or A23’s narrow rims like mavic are so last century.

Do you mean conti supersonic tubes? Race are the standard tubes. Not sure if it was a bad batch as I never used to have problems, but I had three or four split or the valves fall off in quick succession, since swapping to the michelin equivelent which is about 25g heavier, I’ve not had any more problems.

I do love the sound of a Hope freehub and look forward to annoying the old boys on the club run with it. The real reason I’m leaning that way is my brilliant experiences so far with my Pro2’s, are the Novatec similarly easy to service?

MrSmith, I do like the idea of the wider profile offered by the Archetypes.

Pretty much always use Conti Race 28’s.

Knew there was something else – any comments on the finish of the Archetypes?

Read somewhere that black don’t hold up too well of the braking surface…

Lots of info and pictures of post-use braking surface on the Archetypes if you do a bit of googlage. The consensus is that after a few rides the black is worn away and it looks like any other braking track, inevitably.

Cheers Flatboy, not much of an issue then.

Any advise on spoke count for a 65Kg rider, general riding?

Thinking 20/24 but not sure if I should go that low with the D-Light spokes. Perhaps go to 24/28 or upgrade to CX-Ray…

Im on 24/28 dt 2.0/1.5/2.0 spokes with stans rims and im 95kg. Not had any problems with the hubs yet, they’re just like any other generic cartrige bearing hub inside.

Why risk low spoke count?

Weight saved is **** all, you risk weaker wheels (I speak from experience).

I’ll be honest, aesthetics.

Having said that I’m not totally against a higher count, I’m on 20/24 at the moment (Fulcrum R7’s) so it’s a starting point as much as anything.

Why overbuild wheels? The radial strength is in the rim and that’s what tends to matter when hitting a pothole. I’m not overly convinced spokes offer much axial strength either (compare the angle they work at and their cross section, against the angle the rim works at and it’s much chunkier box section).

Perhaps go to 24/28 or upgrade to CX-Ray…

The only advantages will be aero, plus higher fatigue strength. Assume you’re trying to combat the flex from reduced spoke count? CX-Rays won’t help that.

Have a chat with Malcolm at The Cycle Clinic, he’ll advise on the best option.
If you’ll be riding in the winter them Hopes are much better sealed than Novatecs. Besides hub weight makes little difference to the feel of the wheel.

Faced with the same decision recently with the wheels I have on order, I opted for 24/28 to be on the safe side. 62g difference (using CX Rays), which I should be able to cope with!

Cheers all, I’ll have a chat with whoever gets to build them.

Pretty sold on the Archetypes now.

Haze – Member
I’ll be honest, aesthetics.

Having said that I’m not totally against a higher count, I’m on 20/24 at the moment (Fulcrum R7’s) so it’s a starting point as much as anything.

They probably have heavier and stiffer rims.

thisisnotaspoon – Member
Why overbuild wheels?

To avoid risking underbuilt ones?

Recently built archetype on dura ace 24/28 with cx rays. They are a really stiff rim to start with and cope well with low spoke counts, I would have no hesitation going down to a 20h front despite being no lightweight.

A good “underbuilt” wheel will be expensive just because the materials are stronger.

Another happy Ksyrium SL user here – 7000 miles of Lancashire country lanes and still as smooth and as true as new.

I had a set of overbuilt Archetypes on DT190s (32/32) for a short while, as I’d found my previous wheels too flexy. I’m about 95kg, but found them too stiff, and dead feeling if anything, despite still being quite light. I certainly wouldn’t recommend going above 28 spokes. I swapped mine for some Ksyrium SLSs, which are lighter, livelier and still plenty stiff. They look a lot flasher too. If you like that kind of thing. At 6’4″ and 95kg aero isn’t really an issue.

See my post above. Number of spokes will influence rideability once you take a big hit. My Ksyrium wasn’t really rideable. The Open Pro could have probably gone on indefinitely – if you don’t mind speed bump…bump…bump… It has 32 spokes because that is all the Miche hubs come in. I’m going down to 24/28 for Dura Ace. Can’t see the point in much lower. And the Open Pro rim is very similar in profile to the Ksyrium (both with dents now!)

roger musson on spokes

wouldn’t use 2/1.5/2mm in road wheels because they twist too much and are difficult to tension and consequently many of the wheels you see built with these spokes are under tensioned. for lightweight sports wheels i’ve started using dt competition 1.8/1.6/1.8

To avoid risking underbuilt ones?

I’m 95kg and like to jump on/off/over stuff, if they were going to fail, my fat arse would be the one to break them.

wouldn’t use 2/1.5/2mm in road wheels because they twist too much and are difficult to tension and consequently many of the wheels you see built with these spokes are under tensioned.

Agree with this though, they were a PITA to build, but got there eventualy (max tension for Stans rims, whatever that was) but it took 3 attempts to get the tension high and even.

Pah! Just go for Sapim SuperSpokes, 1.8/1.4/1.8. Can’t imagine how much they must wind up!

bol – Member
I had a set of overbuilt Archetypes on DT190s (32/32) for a short while, as I’d found my previous wheels too flexy. I’m about 95kg, but found them too stiff, and dead feeling if anything, despite still being quite light. I certainly wouldn’t recommend going above 28 spokes

Flex in wheels is now a benefit?

Flex in wheels is now a benefit?

To be fair I know someone who wanted some nice ‘soft’ handbuilt wheels because he found his radially laced Mavic Cosmos gave a harsh ride. Doesn’t seem entirely unreasonable to me. No different to the proliferation of Domane/Roubaix type bikes with various ‘flexing’ parts to make them more comfy.

Flex in wheels is now a benefit?

I’ve used a rear disc in a prologue TT and it was not a pleasant ride at all, skipping around corners. Some flex is good I think.

I’ve built 15 or so sets of wheels using the Archetype rims and all have been great to build and to ride too.

They build into a stiff wheel using something like a 28/24 2x lacing pattern and we’ve had zero comeback for truing.

The lack of eyelet did concern me to begin with but I built a set of 28/28 for a friend who is 6’4″ and relatively heavy with it and can confirm no problems.

As a side note, I stopped building in spokes like the DT revolution as I found the twist-up a thing of great annoyance!

I built a set of 26″ stans rims and they required a little re-tensioning after the first couple of rides as despite my best efforts, they de-stressed whilst riding.

Sapim d-light are nice to build with and don’t suffer bad wind up.

yup, they’re not quite as skinny as the revs but still a cheaper option than cx-rays.

I can see daft wheels with radial lacing, discs, deep section rims being uncomfortable/skittish, esp when used by silly testers with 19mm tyres, its more the notion that a bog standard lightish rim on 32H feels “dead” and a lower spoke count would be an improvement that makes me WTF..

It would be interesting to know what tyres and pressures are being used when wheels are thought to be at fault.
23 tubs with 100 psi for me, which is why I blamed the wheel.

who do you guys get to build your wheels? In the past I’ve always just bought from online places like merlin and JRA and used there offers.

I’m currently running Archetype’s built onto Hope Pro2 hubs with DT SuperComp spokes (32 front & rear). Wanted a pair of wheels that stand up to a 100kg rider hammering along pothole strewn roads, very pleased with the result.

where are you based?

who, me, Newcastle. I was thinking commuting wheels and turning up with some cheap hubs, maybe some rims and just asking them to get the spokes.

most cheap online wheel builders use Shimano hubs and I was after something cartridge. Novatech disc andopen pro or open sport would be ideal.

Perhaps ‘dead’ wasn’t a good choice of word. To be honest I’m pretty sure that most of the conclusions I come to about components are more about what’s in my head than under my arse.

It may have been that I was coming from a sub 1500g set of wheels (Roval SLX) to a circa 1700g set of wheels that didn’t look as pretty, but which I had great expectations of. They didn’t feel as fast or as responsive as the ones they replaced. I was using the same tyres and pressures, but they didn’t feel as comfortable either. In fairness the Ksyriums also don’t feel as comfortable as the Rovals, but they wind up quicker than either, look pretty and don’t twist from side to side as I go up hills like the Rovals did.