Isn’t it though! 🙂

Comparing prices minus VAT would be pointless

It may seem pointless if you’ve not experienced anything different, but having the before and after price makes you think a lot more about the cost of goods versus the cost of tax weighted goods. To be honest the average joe probably couldn’t care less, embedded tax and seeing only one price is just part of the culture in the UK.

If you have ever done a tax return in the US versus the UK you will understand that overall you pay significantly less tax in the US.

It may seem pointless

Yes, because it is.

Yes, because it is.

for those who are happy to not understand it.

Understand what? What understanding will increase with this new pricing system you’d introduce?

Oh and…

If:

If you have ever done a tax return in the US versus the UK you will understand that overall you pay significantly less tax in the US.

Then I’ll happily pay more for the society we have here, unequal as it is at times.

…..having the before and after price makes you think a lot more about the cost of goods versus the cost of tax weighted goods. To be honest the average joe probably couldn’t care less, embedded tax and seeing only one price is just part of the culture in the UK.

How about putting up signs on roads detailing how much per mile they cost to maintain ? Or a police car could have its price tag clearly visible, or nurses could have labels on their uniforms stating how much per hour it costs to employ them, and so on.

After all, if it isn’t constantly pointed out to him throughout the day so that he can clearly see how is average joe going to appreciate or understand where his taxes are being spent ?

As I said before, I think people make the mistake when they try and do a straight comparison between the US and the UK as a country, more the US and Europe as the differences from state to state are very profound, down to taxation, cost of living, laws etc. The main comparison here is California which if you take San Francisco as an example is probably comparable to living in London from a cost of living point of view. If you took Georgia as an example, this would probably be the equivalent of Spain or Turkey.

or nurses could have labels on their uniforms stating how much per hour it costs to employ them

I think it would make a huge amount of sense for people to be told how much it costs them at point of use for the NHS even if you aren’t actually paying at point of use. At the moment in the UK you blindly pay tax into a large bucket each month without any true knowledge of what the public services cost. For example, if you went into hospital to have your appendix removed and at the end you saw the cost for how much that operation cost, it would make you think / appreciate more the cost to the taxpayer to keep the NHS running. I have seen it first hand for the cost of cancer care using private BUPA facilities, it would be good for everyone to understand that.

Oh and nobody’s mentioned tipping yet. Now, there’s a bloody stealth tax.

It’s a PITA, I tipped 15% in a restaurant a few months ago and totally ignored (as in, would not serve me) the following night by the waitress.

If you have ever done a tax return in the US versus the UK you will understand that overall you pay significantly less tax in the US.

How much does your medical insurance cost? Quite a few people I love who could not afford medical insurance are alive today thanks to the NHS, which is a big deal.

I have seen it first hand for the cost of cancer care using private BUPA facilities, it would be good for everyone to understand that.

I’m sorry, how does understanding how much “private BUPA facilities” cost help us here ?

Are you suggesting that it will help us to understand what fantastic value for money the NHS offers us, and how we should protect and defend it, and just how unlucky Americans are with their unhealthy obsession with taxation over health provisions ?

For me personally, when in the States, it was company funded. For others they have access to company funded programs, privately funded programs, medicare and medicaid for those on low incomes / benefit / elderly.

How much does your medical insurance cost?

I’m sorry, how does understanding how much “private BUPA facilities” cost help us here ?

The price that private facilities pay for access to cancer care in the UK is equivalent to that for the NHS. The treatment drugs, access to radiotherapy equipment etc comes from the same providers so when you see the break-down of cost it would be equivalent to that for the NHS (apart from the extras provided as part of private cover). Therefore as a tax payer you get to see the cost of what your treatment is. Its really rather simple.

If you pay through tax / NI each year the equivalent of say £1000 towards NHS costs and you unfortunatly ended up with cancer care and you can physically see that the cost of cancer care was say £50,000. You would think, wow, i have a good deal here. If it was the opposite and the cost of cancer care was £50 you would think, where the heck is the rest of my tax money going? People should have an appreciation for what the cost of public services cost.

I think it would make a huge amount of sense for people to be told how much it costs them at point of use for the NHS even if you aren’t actually paying at point of use.

This is something Spain is bringing in, the idea is that people become more aware of the cost of treatment, and will be less inclined to waste public money unnecessarily (for example heading to the doctor’s at the slightest sniffle, just in case it’s pneumonia…) I think it’s a pretty good idea, although I’m not sure how much it will change anything.

They’re also bringing in a 1€ token fee for all prescriptions, the idea being a small charge is enough to discourage people from basically demanding some kind of pill for their cold. Problem with this charge is that people with chronic illnesses end up paying a fair amount extra, this of course is a huge (and unfair) burden on the poorer members of society.

It’s a PITA, I tipped 15% in a restaurant a few months ago and totally ignored (as in, would not serve me) the following night by the waitress.

Hopefully you then left her a single dollar for that nights’ tip.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-qV9wVGb38[/video]

If you have ever done a tax return in the US versus the UK you will understand that overall you pay significantly less tax in the US.

Of course it’s less. But you also get a lot less back.

In terms of ‘value’ the taxes here get you a lot more bang for your buck!

LHS – Member

I think it would make a huge amount of sense for people to be told how much it costs them at point of use for the NHS even if you aren’t actually paying at point of use.

I like this idea. I don’t know how practical it is, but it doesn’t have to be “here’s what you could have won”, way back when I was first diagnosed diabetic and we were being given the blood testing kit etc the nurse just told us “These are £50 a bottle so don’t be afraid to use them, but don’t waste them if you can avoid it” It genuinely did make a difference to how we used the kit, you’d think the reagent strips cost about 1p.

It also made me think how glad I am for the NHS, since as a diabetic from childhood private medical insurance would simply be unavailable in some states, the state cover is massively expensive, I earn too much for medicare (and I don’t believe it covers full costs anyway) So I’d be either buying my own consumables and doctor’s time- mindbogglingly expensive- or I’d be entirely dependent on employer cover. What do you call it when you can’t quit your job again… Oh yeah, slavery.

The stats are pretty horrendous- if you’re not fully insured, on average as a diabetic you get only 20% of the time with doctors, and only 30% of the medication/consumables- people are having to go without essential healthcare on cost grounds, for an otherwise totally managable condition. The average cost of healthcare for a US diabetic is $13,700. The short term impact is that you’re 100% more likely to have to make an ER visit for diabetic issues (something that should be rare), far more likely to suffer ill health, the long term is crippling later life illness and premature death.

That’s just one ailment that I pay attention to because it’s mine, but it’s hardly uncommon. And tbh I bet at least 9/10 have no real understanding of the costs of healthcare, they just think “Why is it so expensive? Must be red tape and waste”

People should have an appreciation for what the cost of public services cost.

True, but I think they are far better off looking at the overall published figures, rather than individual cases.

This scenario..

If you pay through tax / NI each year the equivalent of say £1000 towards NHS costs and you unfortunatly ended up with cancer care and you can physically see that the cost of cancer care was say £50,000. You would think, wow, i have a good deal here. If it was the opposite and the cost of cancer care was £50 you would think, where the heck is the rest of my tax money going?

..just promotes selfish thinking in my opinion. It is one step from that to: “Well I don’t get ill, so I don’t see why I should pay £1000 a year.” – which is how you end up with everyone struggling to pay their own healthcare bills.

Aside from all that, have you considered how much extra bureaucracy (and therefore cost) would be involved in producing full invoices for every treatment on the NHS?

In terms of ‘value’ the taxes here get you a lot more bang for your buck!

True for a certain percentage of the population but not for all.

seeing only one price is just part of the culture in the UK.

And pretty much everywhere else in Europe. I can’t remember ever going to a country besides the US where sales tax was not included in the advertised price.

for example heading to the doctor’s at the slightest sniffle, just in case it’s pneumonia

Hmm.. that may not save money though. If people were dissuaded from going to the docs when they had say a poorly tummy, a certain percentage of those may go on to suffer acute apendicitis or continue to develop bowel cancer, say. Both things are easy to fix early, but harder to fix later and more life threatening.

It may simply be cost effective to catch these things early, but even if it’s not it is probably money very well spent in terms of keeping people alive, well and happy. Which is what the service is for after all.

So,

When companies advertise new products at

$399 USD
£399 GBP

And people get a bit pissed it costs the same FIGURE in GBP as it does in USD (And therefore actually costing more than the USD counterpart) – the USD figure is without the sales tax that would be added at the point of sale based on where the product was purchased?

(VS our figure which is inclusive of tax and a definite figure countrywide.)

Yes.

However that happens less and less nowadays. Most eletronic goods are not like that any more, at least they weren’t when I checked.

Interesting replies. I run a US and UK company. I don’t find some things different in price as mentioned here (eg. groceries). Some things are way cheaper in the US (lease cars, there petrol even though it’s a smaller gallon and lower octane rating).

The difference are that the US is huge and has massive region differences in housing, pay, general costs etc… It’s like comparing Alabama (Greece) to New York (London).

The price that private facilities pay for access to cancer care in the UK is equivalent to that for the NHS. The treatment drugs, access to radiotherapy equipment etc comes from the same providers so when you see the break-down of cost it would be equivalent to that for the NHS (apart from the extras provided as part of private cover). Therefore as a tax payer you get to see the cost of what your treatment is. Its really rather simple.

Nope. I used to work for a provider of services in this area, supplying both the NHS and private, and the NHS unit price was considerably lower. (mainly down to economies of scale, before any BUPA members feel ripped off). The NHS has a LOT of buying power relative to even the largest of private healthcare providers.

My family and I moved to the US in September. I won’t bore you with our healthcare experiences other than to say that we recently took our baby for her 4 month check up which included a 45 minute wait, 10 minute ‘consultation’ and 3 vaccinations. Total cost to us, $911.

The NHS is good, believe me.

I think it would make a huge amount of sense for people to be told how much it costs them at point of use for the NHS even if you aren’t actually paying at point of use. At the moment in the UK you blindly pay tax into a large bucket each month without any true knowledge of what the public services cost.

It seems like a nice idea…. if you aren’t in great need of treatment. The reality that most of us happily don’t think about is that we won’t get the majority of the value from the NHS service we spend our working lives paying for until the few weeks before we die. We’d like to think we’ll go peacefully in our sleep, at home. But more than half of us won’t.

When were really, really ill, frightened, desperate, dying… do you really think theres dignity and in being told just how much that all costs?

When were really, really ill, frightened, desperate, dying… do you really think theres dignity and in being told just how much that all costs?

You’re told when you leave the hospital, not before. And I would hope that in the case of a fatal illness that the relatives would not be informed.

re the NHS why not think about it as starting in debit as your pregnancy and birth costs plus any childhood illnesses etc.

I do think it’s useful to know how much things cost, I was quite surprised when living in the US to find the birth of my daughter cost £2k, I thought that was quite reasonable. Likewise currently undergoing treatment in France, specialist sports doctor appointment is £60 and the knee specialist physic is £25 (much cheaper than UK btw). i get the feeling English doctors treat private appointments as a money spinner rather than part of their job so costs are much higher.

re the US it’s a nightmare if you loose your job as your healthcare goes too and then there are issues about “prior conditions” so if you are sick, loose your job then get another with a new healthcare contract you are likely not going to be covered. The same issue exists in the UK, private healthcare is no substitute for NHS

I do think it’s useful to know how much things cost, I was quite surprised when living in the US to find the birth of my daughter cost £2k,

You’d be quite surprised to learn women are more than twice as likely to die in childbirth in the US too. Maybe £2k is too cheap.

re the US it’s a nightmare if you loose your job as your healthcare goes too

One of the most anachonistic things about the US is healthcare, regardless of it being private, is it being delivered through employers. If they were to wipe the slate clean and start from scratch there is a good argument for biscuit factory you work for being in charge of planning and resourcing your health care would be a difficult one to make. Its a system they’re stuck with rather than one they’d choose.

It’s also hugely wasteful, with admin costs making up 20% of the total.

With Medicare/Medicaid, the admin costs are 2%.

It’s also hugely wasteful, with admin costs making up 20% of the total.

With Medicare/Medicaid, the admin costs are 2%.

The percentages might be skewed by the fact that the private sector in the UK doesn’t offer a full service, it piggy backs the NHS and reliant on the NHS for backup – private hospitals don’t have the level of backup generators that the NHS has for instance, they just bus people off to the the local general if the power fails. If your heart stops on the operating table in a private hospital – you’ll wake up in an NHS ICU and so on. So admin is probably relatively high because the volume of delivery is relatively low.

On the plus side, the seppos do get an awful lot of nuclear-powered aircraft carriers for their taxes, which I’m sure the average citizen get excellent value out of on a day-to-day basis

No but if you are buying a car or a TV you could have a choice of retailers in different towns, or in different states. Not all states are big, and in any case you may live close to the border with another.

Works on things like tv’s or other consumer goods but as a Washington resident paying iirc 7-12% tax, if you purchased a car in tax free Oregon you’d still have to pay Washington sales tax when you insure and register back in your home state.

On the plus side, the seppos do get an awful lot of nuclear-powered aircraft carriers for their taxes, which I’m sure the average citizen get excellent value out of on a day-to-day basis

A bit like the school guineapig they get to take one home and play with it during the holidays peacetime

The percentages might be skewed by the fact that the private sector in the UK doesn’t offer a full service,

My figures were for the US.

All that faffing about with insurance, checking payments, invoicing, collections, etc etc eats up a lot of money.