Most MoD land is publicly owned and as such the MoD should allow access whenever is safe to do so. Some ranges will never be open to the public due to the nature of their use (large unexploded ordnance) and rightly so.

However lets not get too much subservient cap doffing going on, this is land owned by us all and is a great recreational asset. We just* need to find the right balance for access.

* – easy, right ? 😉

I think I’ve said this in previous discussions; I understood that the Army was scaling back it’s operations and training in and around Aldershot, Ash Vale and Bagshot because it wasn’t suitable for their requirements, and moving much of it to the SPTA. Play nicely everyone and the issue may have gone in a few years!

Good point, any inside info from our Army contingent ?

I always find the Gurkhas on exercise on Barossa Common on my way to Swinley to be very friendly!

Why does the modern army need all this land nowadays, anyway?

It is nothing like the requirements at the start of the 2nd world war when the MOD requisitioned loads of common land and then failed to yield it after the war.

With the army shrinking at the rate it is and regimental identity being lost through consolidation, why not just concentrate training in a few areas around the country and maybe build some terrain that actually represents the areas the troops are training to go to.

Plus we could avoid actually sending troops into areas where the likelihood of them actually winning anything is next-to-nothing – i.e. Afghanistan, or pretty much anywhere where there is going to be guerrilla fighting against any strongly religious faction that believes that a virgin-filled paradise awaits for them on the other side.

Enforcing these access rules is not exactly going to endear the MOD/army to the public, from whom it will rely on for its’ future recruits.

When the military know they have to share then they act accordingly.

When the military IN YOUR SMALL EXPERIENCE are using blanks and not lobbing live rounds about, they share. Not all ranges are equal and there are many areas of Scotland you are not allowed to just wander across when you see fit. Get over it.

Why does the modern army need all this land nowadays, anyway?

To exercise on. The modern Army can cover a lot of ground so needs areas to exercise on.

With the army shrinking at the rate it is and regimental identity being lost through consolidation, why not just concentrate training in a few areas around the country and maybe build some terrain that actually represents the areas the troops are training to go to.

When the shinking Army you can’t see (in Germany) comes back to the UK you won’t see any reduction under your nose.

When the military IN YOUR SMALL EXPERIENCE are using blanks and not lobbing live rounds about, they share.

Again, the areas of contention here are NOT primarily the live firing ranges. It is the previously unenforced bylaws on the non-live areas that are under threat of enforcement.

STW sorts out defence!
The army may be pretty small at the moment but it won’t stay that way. The MOD are basically a private landowner how they’re funded is irrelevant, we should be very grateful for any access at all. If some riders weren’t behaving like dicks, this wouldn’t even be an issue. I don’t think the army GAF about peeing off a few mtbers who are too old to recruit. They need to train, it’s their land and to suggest that they should allow people to do what the **** they want on it just for goodwill is frankly retarded.

When the shinking Army you can’t see (in Germany) comes back to the UK you won’t see any reduction under your nose.

it is still a shed-load smaller than it was during the 2nd WW, when the MOD decided that it needed all that land.

The Army is shrinking along with coming back from Germany and alike, so more troops in the UK and they wish to train on MoD land, so the training areas are getting a lot busier as it’s cheaper to train at home, which is their office on a daily basis.

How would you like your office, working environment shat on, walked through, ridden through etc?

It’s all rather funny really how peeps think they have the given right to F@ck about on MoD land and disrupt training!!

The Army needs all it’s different training areas, as the terrain not the climate have a lot to offer with flat to the mountains, which the Army is on Ops at the moment all over the world!!!!!

I disagree, the MoD are funded by public taxation, that’s you and me. I’m not suggesting that we all stick two fingers up and organise critical mass events through exercises 🙂 But the land is publicly owned and should be available for responsible access when safe to do so.

To be fair I think only one person on this thread has got close to this mindset.

Actually TJ, the number of troops in Scotland is already increasing. Currently, there are about 3,000 regulars and perhaps a couple of thousand TA. 800 Engineers are moving to Kinloss this summer and major units from Germany could find themselves north of the border – perhaps 10,000 regulars and reserves before the end of the decade.

The Army needs a lot of space. Obviously, it requires room to manoeuvre armoured vehicles and to exercise with fast air or aviation. However, it also needs smaller areas near barracks for minor exercises, field craft lessons, navigation practise eg Pentlands, Porridge Hill, Ceasar’s Camp etc. Also, there needs to be variety in order to avoid troops becoming familiar with the areas – otherwise it quickly fails to be challenging or realistic.

But the land is publicly owned and should be available for responsible access when safe to do so.

Let’s see how that stands up if you go along to Whitehall and expect a coffee in the pillared hall, or Westminster expecting a pint and a seat to the show. Maybe queenie should be making us cuppas as Buckingham castle. How about going to faslane for a go on the boats?
Sorry, it’s just not a Valid argument.

I’m taking about common land with trees, tracks, some wildlife. When the army aren’t there then it’s pretty quiet apart from people walking dogs, runners and (up until now) cyclists. Equating that to popping into Buck House for a cuppa doesn’t stack up IMO.

But the land is publicly owned and should be available for responsible access when safe to do so.

except that a lot of this land was common land originally, not for the exclusive use of the MOD.

I don’t think the army GAF about peeing off a few mtbers who are too old to recruit.

funnily enough though it is likely that those middle aged people are raising children, who absorb influence from their parent, who might be anti-MOD based on how they were treated once on MOD land…

look at how many people despise the police unfairly based on having been exposed to traffic cops.

The army may be pretty small at the moment but it won’t stay that way

why is it going to get bigger?

If anything there will be less troops in future.

Good debate and some closet squaddies on here too 😉

No. More troops in the UK and many more TA who will train on weekends. Expect to see much more military activity in the UK at a training area near you.

More troops in the UK

yep, more troops in the UK but what are the recruitment rates like compared to the number being got rid of?

And still it is nothing like the number of troops or training requirement of WW2, so why need as much land?

The army has been up to strength for the last 10 years, so no probs with recruitment as far as I know.
I’m pretty sure the army/navy/marines/RAF will manage without a few kids who didn’t join because mummy and daddy sulked after not being allowed to trespass. I don’t think they’d be the ideal recruits.
The military has got bigger and smaller throughout its existence and will continue to do so.

I’m taking about common land with trees, tracks, some wildlife

Highgrove then? The point is, we don’t own MOD land. The MOD does.

Just because they are green doesn’t make them Army, all the armed forces use MoD land for training (RAF, RN and the Boat People(RM)). It is immaterial how the land was aquired in the past, it is MoD land now and you have to live with it.

The Govt’s plan is to increase the TA by about the same number of regular posts being made redundant. Therefore, the Army will still be around 100,000 troops. 30,000 TA will be using training areas over weekends. Also, the MOD has no problem with recruitment. Some jobs have a 18 mth waiting list.

As explained above. The Army needs a lot of land. Modern forces are much more mobile and lethal than WW2 units.

And still it is nothing like the number of troops or training requirement of WW2, so why need as much land?

I doubt we’d be able to explain it to you. After all, you seem to think that the training requirements of a 21st Century military are on a par with those over 70 years ago. Training now is vastly different to then and the troops are training far more than they did in WW2, so they need the space and the variation.

If its common land – then the public have a right to use it for recreation on horseback or foot already – thats established law, this is about using bikes on it, which is different.

Thats the way it is, if you don’t like the fact that bikes are treated differently, then go and speak to your MP.

In the meantime, I’m still yet to see any proof of some sort of “grand crackdown” against normal riders using the MOD land responsibly.

Well I don’t think the Army have sent press reports in 😉 But pants mentioned (at the top of this page) some riders being spoken to on Caesars Camp last night.

“spoken to”

Do we have any more information than that? where they spoken to after being seen riding in with shovels? going for a nightride? normal XC riding? digging jumps?

what does “spoken to” mean? – politely asked to stay out of an area where there was an exercise going on, or told “be off with you or we’ll prosecute you”?

All these things make a big difference and make it easy for us as a community to jump on an outrage bandwagon castigating people when actually we’re talking about a landowner who has been hugely supportive of MTB’ing, hugely tolerant of us load riding pretty much anywhere we like for a long time.

Sorry, the phrase pants used was “stopped” and no, I don’t have any further info.

It would be good to know what the story is.

The army didn’t seem to have a problem with me riding on MOD land today.

Basically, they were stopped and told that they are not allowed to be on here (MoD Land) and were asked to leave politely, in which they did! Enforced it is and to what degree will depend on the individuals who are stopped.

How would you like your office, working environment shat on, walked through, ridden through etc? It’s all rather funny really how peeps think they have the given right to F@ck about on MoD land and disrupt training!!

I don’t think that is the attitude. It’s more like why should the areas be patrolled and out of date bylaws enforced when they aren’t being used. By all means stronger enforcement when in use – why not red flag areas entirely when in use and allow access when not. And then clamp down on non-adherence to this rather than prohibit perfectly reasonable use such as we’ve enjoyed for as long as I can remember.

Edit – q to pants. Were the army actually using Caesar’s camp at the time?

Might not be the attitude in your eyes, but the fact remains its Mod land and its the Armys office not yours and I am dam sure you would not like the disruption or your Boss if you did not make your target(s), no doubt a few choice words would be said!!!

Yes, they were conducting training!! And if not it, same rules apply!

a virgin-filled paradise awaits for them on the other side.

Yep, there’s a whole lot of World of Warcraft lads just waiting to pander to their every whim.

Either way , The Army are the ones with fully automatic weapons .
So if they say ” Sorry Son , Not today as we are playing war with the Americans/Territorials/Ghurkas etc “
I would recommend doffing ones cap and leaving via a direct route .
Or Leave TJ there alone to argue alot .

No, I wouldn’t like anyone using my office while I am. But while I’m not, I’m perfectly happy for someone else to use it. I understand completely that I’d be pissed off if they messed it up before leaving but as long as it doesn’t disrupt me I have no issue. Asking people to leave because active training is going on is perfectly reasonable; it’s when it’s not being used that I have issues.

This is bad, then?

Rachel

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=419003201409&l=bee98d3bc7

I’m sure you’d love it, if they shat all over it along with leaving litter in it and all manner of things!

Are MTBers responsible for large amounts of faeces on MoD land ? 😉

Bloody hell guys, stop whinging! “The MoD has a big garden that I want go and ride my bike in, but they say I can’t because it’s theirs.” Tough titty! Why on earth should anyone in the MoD possibly have to offer justification about how the land is used and when? It’s the MoD’s, not yours, therefore they get to say who gets in, not you.

I think I specifically said I’d be pissed off as you rightly are. If someone used my office and trashed it I’d discuss it with them; not ban everyone else though.