Weight positioning is obviously the biggest part but the bike can make a huge difference. Otherwise we’d be riding steep frames for DH.

I thought it had more to do with suspension Tavel length. The longer (and therefore softer) the front suspension the slacker the head angle to cope with the geometry change as the suspension compresses, though i’m sure that is a gross oversimplification. Weight distribution has to be the biggest part of it – as long as your body’s centre of gravity stays behind the front hub then you’ll be fine whatever the head angle.

My Blur has a 71deg head angle and riding down steep rocky stuff requires real concentration; I have to spoon the front up over stuff the whole time as the front wheel seems to slam into stuff.
I#ve just fitted a 1deg Work Components headset to slacken the bike and lengthen the wheelbase and the difference is massive; it rides over stuff instead of slamming into it (I can also wind my fork out to 140mm which helps even more). Slight downside is that the bike is more tippy at slow speed, but you get used to it.

Weight distribution has to be the biggest part of it – as long as your body’s centre of gravity stays behind the front hub then you’ll be fine whatever the head angle.

The centre of gravity for a bike is not the front hub, it’s dictated by your own weight distribution in relation to your bike, usually somewhere between your saddle and bottom bracket. As long as you drop your heels and hips as the trail steepens, your weight should in theory stay behind this centre of gravity and you won’t rotate forwards…. i.e. over the bars. The amount you move is dictated by the steepness of the gradient (you shouldn’t just shift your weight right back as someone said above). You do the same thing moving forwards on the bike as you climb.

Bike geometry / head angle just gives you a bias towards climbing or descending, but riding down steeps should be achievable with the head angles we’re talking about.

Rocks, roots, steps etc also need to be dealt with at the same time, but the principles remain the same.

NB: all the above is much easier said than done in my experience 😉

So when you are rolling and not braking, regardless of what gradient you are on, adopt a more normal/central position.

Easier said than done, but I will try…

Here’s a question though: you’re rolling down a very steep slope with your weight back, and halfway down there’s a step. What are you supposed to do so you don’t go over the bars when the front wheel drops over the step and the front suspension dives down? If you lift the wheel or shift your weight further back, won’t you lose control of the front of the bike?

^^ you keep your weight back, or even butter give the bars a little tug upwards just before it , that’ll pop the wheel smoothly over the step.

Unfortunately this sort of stuff is hard to explain, for me it just happens…which is the case for all of my riding buddies. We’ve pretty much all raced bicycles (of all wheel sizes) and motocross since we could walk. It’s something you just have to work at.

If in doubt, weight back. It’s always better than going over the front!

The CofG of a bike is not the front hub, but the front hub is the rotation point, so you have a see-saw effect between the bike CofG and the riders, with the front hub as the pivot point.

Since the rider of a bike is much heavier than the bike itself, (for example I’m 85kg vs. a 10kg ish bike) on a steep decent the riders CofG will only have to pass a short distance in front of the front hub to tip the balance. The steeper the decent the shorter that distance to tip you over the bars. As long as the riders CofG remains behind the front hub you’ll be fine.

For fast downhill riding you want soft plush suspension. If you have soft plush suspension you need longer travel. If you have long travel, as the suspension compresses it brings the tipping point closer towards you. Therefore you need a slacker head angle to push the front wheel further away from you, which allows for more suspension travel with softer plusher suspension = faster downhill.

A steeper head angle just means the rider has to compensate more by hanging off the back of the bike, which is tiring and makes it more difficult to control the bike, and ultimately slows you down.

For fast downhill riding you want soft plush suspension.

Not everyone does…

The potential centre of rotation when going down steep stuff or braking hard is not the front hub, it is the contact patch of the front tyre. A slacker head angle extends the front centre, making it easier to keep your CoG behind the front tyre contact patch – but so too does lengthening the reach (effective top tube length essentially).

I’ve noticed that riders who are comfortable on a given gradient stay much more central on the bike, only shifting rearwards when braking harder. If you’re too far off the back of the bike you can’t load the front wheel enough for good cornering, nor can you pre-load the front for popping off or over stuff.

If you are rolling down a slope then you and your bike are moving as one. so you arent going to fall over the front unless the bike sharply decelerates under you.

I would say that rolling off a small step on a steep grade is not really different to rolling one on the flat. The bike will briefly tip forward compared with your body. If you are already braking and hanging off the back at the extent of your arms, the bike can’t tip forward much and will pull you over. If you are rolling and a little more central, it can.

I think control and confidence is very hard while resisting braking forces and why choosing braking points and then free rolling obstacles, rather than dragging brakes through them, has been key to some of my personal improvement and enjoyment in the last couple of years.

Hi Roverpig

It sounds like your technique is more at fault than your bike.

There is a tendancy for mountain bikers to invest large amounts of money in their bikes and none in themselves.

Get some coaching… yes I coach but i never punt myself on here and that is not the purpose of my post… my point is that you will get more back pound for pound spent on coaching than any product you can buy for your bike…

Have a little look at the article in the link, it explains the importance of under rotation.

http://www.imbikemag.com/issue2/?t=Under-Rotation-Mountain-Bike-Technique&page=99

Don’t be down heart and keep getting out there but maybe consider if you have the correct skill set for the sections you are riding, if not then work on getting them and progressing to tougher terrain gradually.

Campbell coaching in N. Wales, Jedi in Herts and Dirtschool up in Scotland are all great. Choose the one nearest to you and iron out those wrinkles.

Repeatedly going OTB is sure to have an effect on the way you approach stuff and eventually your body! There are too many things to mention in a post here, but the earlier posts cover some issues. I’d put a Bakewell tart on your eyes being part of the issue as well as a limited range of motion (both very common). In short many of us need to look further ahead/through the trail and move with and against the bike more dynamically. Your body has more travel than anything you could plug into your frame.

A slacker bike won’t help until you address the technical; then get a slack frame once you’ve solved the problem 😀

Have a little look at the article in the link, it explains the importance of under rotation.

http://www.imbikemag.com/issue2/?t=Under-Rotation-Mountain-Bike-Technique&page=99

What a great little article/magazine! Wish I could go out and try it right now rather than sitting in an office…

Here’s a question though: you’re rolling down a very steep slope with your weight back, and halfway down there’s a step. What are you supposed to do so you don’t go over the bars when the front wheel drops over the step and the front suspension dives down? If you lift the wheel or shift your weight further back, won’t you lose control of the front of the bike?

Your front suspension won’t dive with correct technique, i.e. looking ahead, heels dropped, relaxed position. Just let the bike move under you, extend arms to manual off the step if needed.

Again, easier said than done!

Bikes have got slacker over the years, but the trails have remained the same….

This. My Anthem X is considered to be very much on the steep side these days, but I really like it. Ok, a slacker bike would feel a little more stable on the steep and twisty stuff, but I’m happy to trade that for the light and enjoyable ride on the flat and climbs – which I spend a lot more time riding.

Your fork suspension will dive…. by it’s very nature, you’re suspended in the air by it.

So when you put the brakes on, momentum will send you forwards, and the suspension will compress.

It may however be tuned to resist the low speed compression (as best it can).

Bikes have got slacker over the years, but the trails have remained the same….

DH tracks have got steeper.
XC rides now include the old DH tracks.

My XC bike is more capable than my DH bike from 15yrs ago.

And what about 29ers? They seem to all be 69 degrees or steeper. Surely they aren’t banned from downhill courses.

Not banned yet…

All I know is that on my SX Trail with a 66 deg head angle I survived and enjoyed one of the steepest gnarliest trails I’ve evver seen (hidden track on super Mozine) and my mate on his Reign with 68.5 nearly had to have a little cry (and he’s normally much better than me).

A slack bike is like a powder specific snowboard – they only really come into their own in specific situations, but you won’t know until you’ve tried.

I blame the angle measuring apps, we never used to know for sure…

Head angle on its own doesn’t mean much without wheel diameter and fork offset being considered. Fork offset has been standardised by fork manufacturers and wheel diameter is fixed by 26 or 29 (or too close to 26 to be worth bothering with 650B). So a 29er needs a steeper head angle to get equal trail (and the larger wheels have more gyroscopic stability too).

My top tip to the original poster, is to stay off the front brake. its the opposite of what you want to do naturally – if you are papping yourself at the time, that is – which you probably are as you recall the last time you went over the bars. So bascially you need to force yourself to grip the handlebars with all four fingers (and thumb) as you approach any particularly sketchy bits – then brake hard to slow yourself down once you have cleared the obstacle.

A slacker bike would help – absolutely no doubt about it on that one, although you can of course compensate by improving your own skills as many have suggested here.

Dropper post (or even just stopping and putting your seat down) would help a lot too. Similarly a shorter stem will help a lot – as someone else said its all about keeping your weight back. Try dropping the seat and literally burning your ass on the rear tyre.

Finally, if it all goes wrong, practise jumping off the back of the bike rather than going over the bars – literally just let go of the brakes, throw the bike out in front of you and jump off the back (but only if your seat is already down -if it aint, you may lose some very important dangly bits in the process!)

Jumping off the back before going over the bars. Now there’s a skill to try and master. Thanks.

….its actually easier than you think – just need to find a soft spot and practise it again and again on a steep slope (actually the steeper it is the easier it is to jump off the back). You have to be prepared to sacrificse you bike though and just let go if it – if you hang on with a death grip, you are certainly going over with it!

Eventually it will become just like what you would do if you tripped in the street (you’d put your hands out in front of you without thinking at all)

Thanks. It doesn’t sound that difficult. As you say, just let go of the bars and jump back. Once I’ve crashed I’ve pretty much stopped worrying about the bike anyway 🙂 The hard bit will be trying to override my natural instinct to hang on when the brown stuff hits the fan. Just need a nice soft grassy bank where I can practice it without injuring myself or the bike.

this week I shall mostly be….
making a concerted effort to drop my heels and wrists

Arse over the back wheel,

arms straight but not locked and relaxed

tongue hanging out optional but not recommended.

That’s the way I roll … down hill.

Jumping off the back before going over the bars. Now there’s a skill to try and master. Thanks.

its easier to run off the front of the bike.

on a fairly recent skills day with jedi we were discussing my habit of getting too much weight over the front. Turns out that my controls were too far forward (as in further under the bars) … when I adjusted them the difference was amazing … simple but effective fix. My current bike has a steeper head angle than my previous 575 and only 120mm travel but its much more controlled headed down the steep stuff. I also used to hang too much over the rear which took too much weight off the front .. leading to a lack of control and over reliance on rear brake …
Obviously DH bikes are designed the way they are because they do that paricular job better than a normal trail bike but for the average joe with a trail bike I think controls set up and rethinking your technique (or getting someone to rethink it for you)has a lot to do with it.

have your heels down as far as comfortable