Viewing 40 posts - 201 through 240 (of 278 total)
  • Richest 'British' sportsperson…
  • ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    He is committing no crime.

    You’re banging on about it being legal THM, as if that’s the only consideration that matters.

    Obviously in your immoral world everything and anything goes as long as it’s legal.

    But clearly the purpose of this thread was to discuss the moral aspects of this situation, as the comment in the the original post points out : ” My moral compass would not allow me to do this, I would want to give something back”. Not whether it was legal or not.

    And it is only by discussing moral aspects of situations that laws are changed or introduced. Perhaps you feel that society has reached a moral pinnacle and no further discussions are now needed?

    But others feel they have the moral right to determine what he should or should not do. brilliant.

    You think there is something wrong with that?

    You think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, George Osborne, was wrong to state in one of his budget speeches to Parliament : “aggressive tax avoidance as morally repugnant”

    Or does that perhaps suggest that the problem still needs addressing?

    Instead of making depressingly predictable comments about “the green eyed monster” how about recognising the problem which George Osborne has identified and not making silly accusations of jealousy?

    aracer
    Free Member

    Yes thats what I’ve said a number of times already

    My apologies for suggesting you thought otherwise. His actions are therefore neither tax evasion or tax avoidance, simply “organising his finance to minimise tax”, hence directly equivalent to an ISA.

    You think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, George Osborne, was wrong to state in one of his budget speeches to Parliament : “aggressive tax avoidance as morally repugnant”

    I certainly don’t think that was wrong, but most of us don’t believe LH is engaged in aggressive tax avoidance.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    What would call aggressive tax avoidance then aracer? Moving your domicile to another country seems like an extreme form of tax avoidance to me.

    And who is “most of us” btw ? On how many people’s behalf are you speaking?

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    aracer
    Free Member

    Do you really want to go there?

    Well I give you JK Rowling:[/quote]

    Which has what relevance to:

    I’ll invoice Mr Hamilton and his mates for all the health care and education they had whilst growing up later.

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    His actions are therefore neither tax evasion or tax avoidance, simply “organising his finance to minimise tax”, hence directly equivalent to an ISA.

    If you think paying into an isa is equivalent to a person earning tens of millions a year moving to Monaco then good luck to you. I dont think its in anyway sensible to suggest they are equivalent. My moral compass is more than happy to pay into an isa whilst I wouldnt move abroad to avoid tax as I think its wrong.

    aracer
    Free Member

    What would call aggressive tax avoidance then aracer?

    The HMRC definition of tax avoidance was posted earlier, I’d suggest not things which don’t come under that.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    So moving to Monaco wasn’t for tax avoidance purposes then?

    Or it was but it’s just a fairly standard thing which people tend to do to minimize their tax bills?

    Which one is it?

    aracer
    Free Member

    If you think paying into an isa is equivalent to a person earning tens of millions a year moving to Monaco

    Since neither are tax evasion or tax avoidance, would you like to provide some other defitintions of ways of saving tax so we can differentiate?

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    What could be more aggressive in terms of tax avoidance to the UK govt than leaving the country? I think the consenus is either he is or he is but i dont really care or he is but on a technicality via HMRC rules he is not

    We all know he left to pay less tax and you are only debating what we call this from what i can see.
    *I assumed we were using tax avoidance in the more common sense (ie a way of avoiding paying tax)

    Its pretty clear this is why he moved and why you dont wish to call this tax avoidance is a pin dance i have little interest in

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    You dont avoid paying tax by paying into an isa. It is tax free, like riding a bike on the roads doesnt mean cyclists avoid road tax. I have now repeated all the points I’ve already posted so have very little else tk say. If you think paying into an isa is equivalent to moving to a tax haven good for you fella, I dont.

    mefty
    Free Member

    He has not in the tax sense moved his domicile. He has become non resident. Under UK law you have to become both not resident and not ordinarily resident to escape tax on your income. The latter looks at things over a longer term (3 to 4 years) so you can’t just flit off for a year and get all your income paid then.

    HMRC says tax avoidance as doing stuff that is outside both the law and the intention of the law. There has never been any intent by parliament to tax on a citizenship basis and we never intended to tax non residents (who are only not ordinarily resident) . It can’t therefore in their terms be described as tax avoidance, let alone aggressive tax avoidance.

    You can call it unpatriotic tax planning, greedy etc, but it ain’t tax avoidance as HMRC defines it.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    did he do it to pay less tax?

    If the answer is yes then he did it to avoid tax.

    [ hence why you added[editted] the last sentence and caveat to say as HMRC defines it]

    aracer
    Free Member

    You dont avoid paying tax by paying into an isa. It is tax free

    😆 whereas investing your money in something that isn’t an ISA isn’t tax free. I hope JY is enjoying you dancing on pins!

    like riding a bike on the roads doesnt mean cyclists avoid road tax.

    maybe not, but driving a group A car could quite reasonably be described as avoiding tax.

    aracer
    Free Member

    JY – the issue is that if you describe it as tax avoidance, then so is the list I posted earlier (at the time I assumed like you that we were using the common definition – I’m no more interested than you in arguing about the definition of tax avoidance)

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    I hope JY is enjoying you dancing on pins!

    Oh i think you have him over a barrel 😉
    IMHO its like arguing that me havign a small car that pays £35 VED is tax avoidance as I could have a big car that pays more.
    Even worse not smoking is tax avoidance.
    Sometimes the govt uses taxation policy to encourage behaviour and an ISA is one example as is the car.
    If you do this you are not avoiding tax [ I am not sure you are but to save the argiment] in the same way as someone who leaves the country and we all know this.
    Of course its STW so we can murder it to death for giggles but we all know

    I think to comapre that to LH is to compare chalk and cheese

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    Well of course he’s not avoiding tax, I’m sure he’s perfectly willing to pay all the taxes that he is due to pay in Monaco.

    However I’m also sure that most people are fully aware as to why he went to Monaco – to avoid paying taxes.

    Use HMRC definition v the ordinary man in the street definition

    Legal v moral

    It really depends what you want to talk about. But it’s clear what the topic of discussion behind this thread was, ie, whether it was morally acceptable, not whether it was legal.

    mefty
    Free Member

    whether it was morally acceptable, not whether it was legal

    but it is not merely legal, it is also within the spirit of the law. This is an important point because it helps identify where the fault lies i.e the system itself or some external factor.

    aracer
    Free Member

    Sometimes the govt uses taxation policy to encourage behaviour and an ISA is one example as is the car.

    Which government? It seems the Monaco government also uses taxation policy to encourage behaviour 😉

    But it’s clear what the topic of discussion behind this thread was, ie, whether it was morally acceptable, not whether it was legal.

    We covered that one in about the second post. I’m fairly sure everybody agrees it isn’t tax evasion (illegal), we’re simply arguing about where it falls on the scale of legal methods of avoiding paying tax. The important point there is that it is not exploiting a loophole, hence it’s not what Gideon was talking about.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    “But it’s clear what the topic of discussion behind this thread was, ie, whether it was morally acceptable, not whether it was legal.”

    We covered that one in about the second post.

    Yes of course, it was such a simple question, and these sort of threads don’t usually extend beyond about two posts.

    So what was the consensus that was reached in just two posts…… it is morally acceptable?

    deadlydarcy
    Free Member

    The second post said “Yawn”.

    😀

    tpbiker
    Free Member

    I find it slightly amusing/hypocritical when certain posters on here try to say they can’t see the difference between owning an ISA and upping sticks and moving to Monaco soley to avoid paying tax, as its just varying degrees of the same thing…

    …yet the same posters argue voraciously that buying an expensive car is immoral, a blatent show of greed, and is in no way similar to buying an 8k bike…

    At least be consistent with your socialist principles…

    engineeringcowboy
    Free Member

    Perhaps he just moved there because the sun shines more?

    mudshark
    Free Member

    The Gov’t encourages us to use ISAs as want us to save for our futures so helps the country. Moving to a tax haven doesn’t help the country much so they don’t encourage that.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    and is in no way similar to buying an 8k bike…

    At least be consistent with your socialist principles…

    Buying “an 8k bike” is the same as moving to Monaco to avoid pay tax? In what way?

    And who’s got an 8k bike? My most expensive bike is my road bike which would probably cost somewhere in the region of about 3.5k to replace like for like, I would seriously struggle to spend 8k on a bike even if I put my mind to it.

    I would like to remain consistent with my socialist principles tpbiker so any clues would be gratefully received.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    as its just varying degrees of the same thing…

    Yes in the same way that punching someone who breaks into your house or stabbing them ten times and then standing there watching them bleed to death is just varying degrees of the same thing [ self defence].

    tpbiker
    Free Member

    ernie…that wasn’t even remotely aimed at you fella…

    Buying “an 8k bike” is the same as moving to Monaco to avoid pay tax? In what way?

    Its not…

    tpbiker
    Free Member

    Yes in the same way that punching someone who breaks into your house or stabbing them ten times and then standing there watching them bleed to death is just varying degrees of the same thing [ self defence].

    Junkyard….well yes, I’d argue they are very different as well, as is having an ISA and moving to a tax free haven. I’m not sure if for once we are agreeing on something 🙂

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    Its not…

    Fair enough. I just assumed that throwing in the “8k bike” into a debate about someone moving to Monaco to avoid pay taxes meant that it was in some way connected. But I happy to agree that it bears no relevance.

    ernie…that wasn’t even remotely aimed at you fella…

    That’s cheered me up no end. I would hate anyone to question my socialist principles 😛

    aracer
    Free Member

    …yet the same posters argue voraciously that buying an expensive car is immoral, a blatent show of greed, and is in no way similar to buying an 8k bike…

    Still holding a grudge about that? Though your bike is getting more expensive – it was originally £1500 wheels, then a £5k bike (I suspect ernie might just about manage to spend that much).

    Though that discussion was about extravagance, in which case it seems clear that spending £5k is different to spending £60k, whilst this one is about principles where the amount is irrelevant.

    At least be consistent with your socialist principles…

    😆 – I’d love to see the reaction of other posters on this thread if I claimed to be one of those. Though congratulations on noticing my lack of consistent political stance, given I don’t tend to base my opinions on a fixed political position.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    You are Nick Clegg and I demand a meaningless pledge 😉

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    You dont avoid paying tax by paying into an isa.

    What do you do then? And why is the amount you can out into the ISA limited and the rest liable to tax? Are the Gov and HMRC complete muppets?!?

    You are entitled to plan your tax affairs in a way that makes sure you do not pay more tax than you have to. There are many legitimate ways in which you can save tax, for example by saving in a tax-free ISA,

    Obviously not, as they could hardly be clearer could they?

    Though congratulations on noticing my lack of consistent political stance, given I don’t tend to base my opinions on a fixed political position.

    And good for you. Sad when people feel compelled to frame everything thought the predetermined prism of a group of random political people. How dull that must be!

    Hi, this is true, because someone called Dave/Nick/Ed/Nige says it is. And I believe every word too. 😉

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    I don’t tend to base my opinions on a fixed political position.

    I’ve long noticed how you’re all over the place politically aracer – you think that’s a good thing?

    Although obviously not socialist.

    Have you considered a career in New Labour – home of the ideological airheads?

    tpbiker
    Free Member

    I hold no grudge at all. But since you have picked up that that was aimed at you aracer…

    I just find it strange that some people seem to condone this type of ‘tax avoidance’ (or whatever you want to call it), whilst at the same time thinking its immoral that someone should spend their hard earned on a flash car.

    As for my stance on it, I’d love to be rich and be able to afford luxury items. But with wealth come the (IMO) moral obligation to not try to avoid paying tax on your earnings. That in my eyes is just pure greed.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    Sad when people feel compelled to frame everything thought the predetermined prism of a group of random political people. How dull that must be!

    Unlike you THM who is still struggling to decide whether to vote Labour after spending the last 5 years slagging them off.

    aracer
    Free Member

    I just find it strange that some people seem to condone this type of ‘tax avoidance’ (or whatever you want to call it), whilst at the same time thinking its immoral that someone should spend their hard earned on a flash car.

    I don’t think I said anything about it being immoral spending money on a car, I simply disputed your assertion that £1500 bike wheels were just as extravagant as a £60k car. Which as ernie pointed out has no relation at all to this discussion.

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    Ernie are you Derren Brown? You seem to love saying what others are thinking.

    I am perfectly happy with my vote thanks and the reason. And great to make my own mind up. Not that this has anything to do with making moral accusations about someone else’s business.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    And great to make my own mind up.

    You get huge satisfaction in deciding to vote Tory at every election? Good for you!

    tpbiker
    Free Member

    I don’t think I said anything about it being immoral spending money on a car’

    ok fair enough, i stand corrected. You said it was 60 times more ludicrous spending money on a car than on a stupidly expensive set of wheels. Not something i agree with, but admittedly not the same at all, and i agree isn’t relevant to this discussion.

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    C’mon Ernie make you mind up…am I voting Labour or Tory?

    Do,you not get any pleasure from exercising your democratic right? That must be a little sad.

    Wasn’t it immoral to buy a very expensive car, but moral to ride a bike over it? 😉 it’s only a laff.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    Sad when people feel compelled to frame everything thought the predetermined prism of a group of random political people. How dull that must be!

    I dont think you have fully understood how principles work and you seem to have confused them with Party politics
    Its not even an easy mistake to make its almost like it was said to rile folk for having principles.

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