Viewing 24 posts - 1 through 24 (of 24 total)
  • Retrospective flue fitting on a wood burning stove
  • ahsat
    Full Member

    We are trying (!) to buy a house, but at the last hurdle it turns out that the wood burning stove that has been fitted is neither smoke free compliant (it looks to be a Sunrain stove) or had a flue fitted. It was fitted by the vendor himself. I know we can burn smoke free coal (not the same as wood) if it is a multi-use stove, which I am not sure of, or just use it as a decorative feature (not the plan). I know it is highly advised to get a flue fitted as well. Can this be done retrospectively and what sort of cost? It is a ~120 year old mid terrace.

    Cheers

    globalti
    Free Member

    Does it need a flue liner? If the brickwork in the party wall is in good shape with no evidence of leakage, the flue is doing the job it was designed to do. Selling superfluous flues is a big money spinner for stove installers.

    As for all this twaddle about some stoves being suitable for smokeless zones, I’d have thought that combustion temperature would have a lot to do with it and any stove that has a firebrick lining and good draft can achieve the very bright, dry, hot burning conditions needed to ensure a clean burn of wood. What does the manufacturer’s brochure or web page say?

    ahsat
    Full Member

    He did a lot of remedial work on the property at the time, so maybe the chimney was all in good shape during that. Fair point. As long as its swept and we fit some CO detectors, one would think we may be ok I guess.

    There doesn’t really seem to be any manufacturer material on it. I’ve been given the details of the stove as: Element Fires and Stoves, Sunrain Stoves, JA Series Looking into it, these is a Chinese stove that gets badged under various names, so its not going to be the best so maybe the flue efficiency savings isn’t worth it with a relatively low efficiency stove!?. However it would be good if we could use it for 2-3 years whilst we saved for something a bit better! Also its in the kitchen – I’d almost prefer to save the money for one in the sitting room!

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middling Edition

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middlin...
    Latest Singletrack Videos
    martinhutch
    Full Member

    , I’d have thought that combustion temperature would have a lot to do with it and any stove that has a firebrick lining and good draft can achieve the very bright, dry, hot burning conditions needed to ensure a clean burn of wood.

    That’s not the issue often – they burn fine, but to be compliant, they need to be missing the ability for the air supply to be throttled down enough to cause inefficient burning. Most of us don’t do that, but my stove certainly came with an adaptor to make sure that the vent could never be shut completely.

    ahsat
    Full Member

    I guess the thing is then, is to burn it properly or put it out, so neighbors dont raise a smoke complaint – until we replace it with something else!

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    If the vendor fitted it recently, it most likely won’t have building control or HETAS approval. Again, whilst you’re unlikely to burn the place down, check the terms of your buildings/home insurance policy, as if you have a chimney fire, having an unapproved and self-fitted stove could invalidate it.

    ahsat
    Full Member

    check the terms of your buildings/home insurance policy, as if you have a chimney fire, having an unapproved and self-fitted stove could invalidate it.

    Wow, ok thanks. That is worth bearing in mind. He has offered an indemnity policy on it, which we are waiting to hear the details on.

    mrmonkfinger
    Free Member

    If you don’t got a hetas or BC certificate, that’s a pretty good reason to get a £1k reduction, otherwise its just a decoration (officially).

    as for all this twaddle about some stoves being suitable for smokeless zones,

    Some manufacturers have spent a ton of cash getting a fancy sticker. Their stoves will be more expensive and legal in smokeless zones.

    Other manufacturers haven’t. Their stoves will be cheaper. And not legal (unless you burn smokeless fuel, which of course everyone with one of these will do) in smokeless zones.

    ahsat
    Full Member

    I am waiting for the solicitor to come back to me, but yes, I do worry that at the moment it is just a decoration! Not a deal breaker, but not as sold! We are potentially having the same issue with the solar panels which dont have BC but were installed by an MCS firm.

    Basically the vendor is keen to move and wants to get this sorted, faster than he can get sign off (and I dont think he will get sign off on the stove anyway, as it isnt smoke free compliant!).

    globalti
    Free Member

    The weird thing about “smokeless” fuels is that the “smokeless” nuggets we chuck on our stove smoke like hell, even worse than wood, until they get up to temperature and begin to glow. As with a cold car engine I’m sure stoves are at their most damaging environmentally during the warmup phase.

    mrmonkfinger
    Free Member

    Quite so.

    TBH we don’t even bother with smokeless nuggets anymore, the “unapproved” ones seem to burn identical and cost less.

    B.A.Nana
    Free Member

    That Sunrain doesn’t appear in the HETAS approved stoves list so you won’t be able to retro fit anything to make it comply, looks to be just a cheapy stove from a builders Merchant or somewhere, I’m sure it’ll be fine, but it’s almost certainly made by the Glorious Peoples Tractor Factory and Dangerous Toy Company.
    So yes, you can wing it and hope no one complains to the council or buy a stove that’s approved (I think technically it’s called ‘HETAS exempt’, but everyone says approved).

    My B-in-L has had a few stoves fitted without liner and without sign off, hasn’t bothered him. However, he did get someone to fit it who knew what they were doing. They smoke test the chimney to see if it needs a liner.

    In answer to your question, my rounded up fag packet figures (I’ve had it done recently):

    New liner fitted and materials (chimney pot, cement, cowl) – £500
    Flexi liner,clamp, insert, top plate – £250(316 grade) or £500(904grade)
    Stove fitted (assuming using existing pipe, register plate etc) – £250
    Sign off – £250? (I think someone on here quoted that, I’ve not done this bit)
    New stove – £500 – £750 will get you a decent one.
    If it’s a 2 storey house they’ll use ladders, a 3 storey house you might need scaffolding (I used it as an opportunity to get lots of other jobs done on the front of my house). Scaffolding – £500

    It’s probably also worth noting that to get it signed off, it’s possible you may have to make alterations to the Hearth. Someone else on here might know more about the regs (Document-J).

    ahsat
    Full Member

    Thanks very much B.A.Nana – that is useful. We will get the chimney checked and will also check the insurance. Think in reality we will look to replace it when we can and be prepared to not use it in that time. Like I said, its in the kitchen and there is central heating – we should be able to cope! Just annoying as one of the appeals of the house, but can be sorted with some cash in due course. I checked the council sign off here and its £160 as and when the correct installation is in place.

    neilnevill
    Free Member

    It might have BC sign off, it could legally be used with smokeless fuel, so no reason BC wouldn’t sign off.

    I detailed full costs for a self install on a thread a month or so ago. Quickly re capping;
    Flexible liner £20-30/M depending on quality, but if existing chimney is sound this isn’t essential. Only way to properly test that means getting on the roof to block the pot and do a smoke test.
    Hanging cowl £50-75
    Register plate and fixings ~£20
    Adapter to vitreous pipe £10
    Vitreous pipe £10
    CO alarm £20
    Sundries £20
    BC sign off £216 here in Croydon
    Probably missed something but that covers most of the costs

    Last, you say install in kitchen? Is there an extractor fan? That can effect draw, and alters the smoke tests needed. The extractor may need modifying to make things compliant (or other
    Alterations can be done)

    boxelder
    Full Member

    Quote yesterday in Cumbria – flue liner, new chimney pot, sweep and new steel plate at chimney base £800. Regs have changed and ours wouldn’t pass now, but did 10 yr ago when we had it fitted. If it’s DIY and not signed off, reduction from price as above.

    ahsat
    Full Member

    Thanks all. Useful. We are in West Yorks so Cumbria prices might be similar.

    Last, you say install in kitchen? Is there an extractor fan? That can effect draw, and alters the smoke tests needed. The extractor may need modifying to make things compliant (or other Alterations can be done)

    It is in the dinning part of the kitchen dinner. Yes, there is an extractor. Its not the worlds biggest room, but probably a good few meters between extract and stove, but that is an interesting observation.

    It might have BC sign off, it could legally be used with smokeless fuel, so no reason BC wouldn’t sign off.

    It doesnt have sign off, but I think that is honestly because he hasnt sought it! He kept being out of the country during the process and wants to get moved.

    ahsat
    Full Member

    Just one thought this morning – for the house purchase to go through (its with a mortgage) will we still need some form of indemnity or BC sign off to keep the mortgage company happy, or are they not worried about stoves?

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    A condition of the mortgage would be a valid insurance policy. I imagine that as your vendor has declared it, at the very least you would need an indemnity covering any difficulties getting it signed off by BC. If you’re in a smoke control area and the stove itself is not compliant, sign-off is not likely to happen.

    My advice would be to arrange with the vendor for a HETAS installer to visit the premises and look at the whole installation, and tell you what it would need to meet regs. Then you would have an idea of cost and can take that back to the vendor for negotiation. He would also be able to smoke test the chimney.

    Reading Part J of building regs may give you an idea if the rest of the surround – hearth materials/size, clearances etc are sufficient, or whether you’d need building works as well.

    neilnevill
    Free Member

    Since the stove could burn smokeless fuel, BC would not be concerned it isnt defra exempt. The defra exemption allows the burning of other fuels, normally ‘seasoned wood’, but smokeless fuels such as anthracite can be burnt in an open fire or any other appliance.

    Mortgage provider wouldn’t be worried about the stove if you don’t use it. They may be concerned if it’s your primary heating method though.

    johndoh
    Free Member

    they need to be missing the ability for the air supply to be throttled down enough to cause inefficient burning

    This – just see if you can get an adapter retrospectively fitter by a HETAS engineer.

    ahsat
    Full Member

    Reading Part J of building regs may give you an idea if the rest of the surround – hearth materials/size, clearances etc are sufficient, or whether you’d need building works as well.

    Its in a huge gap, I dont think that is going to be a problem. Its only a little stove.

    As neilneil says, we can use it in a smoke-free zone with smoke-free fuel. So that bit should in fact be fine. I guess the insurance is still the main question mark! Problem is everyone wants to complete on Monday (!) hence the vendor looking for work arounds!!

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    Depends if a smokeless-compliant adapter is available for this particular stove. From what I’ve read, I doubt it.

    Officially, the whole installation needs BC or HETAS sign-off though, the smokeless thing is just one aspect of it. If the chimney doesn’t draw properly, or leaks, then you’ll need a liner.

    If the vendor wants quick completion, you’re in a good position to get some money for the job he didn’t finish properly.

    ahsat
    Full Member

    Thanks all. Think we have sorted it by a slight paperwork oversight on all accounts – the stove isn’t actually listed in the legal documents for the sale! Neither us or the vendor spotted this till this morning. So to allow this too progress, we are just going on the basis he is taking it with him (which he isn’t!) and we will get a HETAS engineer in ourselves in the new year! What a faff! Few more paperwork hurdles to cross and hopefully we’ll be there!

    neilnevill
    Free Member

    yu can’y get a HETAS engineer in, it has to BC. HETAS is a trade scheme that allows SELF-certification. It is illegal for them to certify someone elses work. So unless you get it altered, say getting the flue lined, a HETAS engineer can’t legally certify it.

Viewing 24 posts - 1 through 24 (of 24 total)

The topic ‘Retrospective flue fitting on a wood burning stove’ is closed to new replies.