Just got one and within a week (before I got the v5c logbook) I got a ticket from a mobile camera. I was doing 60 in a 60 limit, but it my van is classed as N1 – commercial, so limit is only 50, not 60.

Anyone else with a traffic/vivaro crew? can you check your v5c and tell me if it is N1 or M1.

M1 is classed as passenger or dual use, and so normal car speed limits apply.

I think it depends on how it was first registered. If it was commercial it’ll be 50 limited., if it was probate it’ll be 60. It has a effect on tax too- private means a £400 as it’s on emissions banding, not plg.

If its van based, usually van limit apply. Vivaro, connect etc – even the car style versions. Some cameras are also human operated so if it looks like a van…its a van.

simple way to tell.. did you pay vat on purchase price.. yes = commercial no = 60mph.

I now know mine is n1 and 50 limited.
Just wondered what others were, and if it is possible to change

As far I as I know it’s 50mph and always will be. It matters not if it’s a commercial or private van.

I now know mine is n1 and 50 limited.
Just wondered what others were, and if it is possible to change

Did you not mention on another thread that the V5 also shows it as a two seater rather than the 6 it had fitted when you bought? Speed limits aside this needs looking into – if the extra seats have been fitted retrospectively then you need to make sure thats been done legitimately and correctly (the V5c seems to hint that might not be so) – this can cause all sorts of insurance woes so you need to get on top of it now – as either your V5 is wrong and needs to be corrected (or its not wrong and it hasn’t had a legit conversion) or your insurance certificate is wrong and you’re going to get humped if you have a shunt.

Mines on commercial so is 50

Check the rules on “Dual Purpose Vehicles”

They are a bit complicated, but if it has some fairly small windows in the back doors and sides, a rear seat and an unladen weight less than 2040kg (ish – can’t remember the exact number) then it counts as a dual purpose vehicle and car speed limits apply. Not a clue if it also changes your road tax.

If you want you can make the above mods, send proof to DVLA and they should update your V5.

I’ve got a Dispatch Combi and it is M1, MPV and diesel car on the V5.

This is a really confusing one and includes type approval I think.. Hence some factory combi vans are m1 where 2 or 3 seats up front are n1. It’s really not easy but the vin plate and your reg number will tell dvla and police what the spread limit should be for you…

Think the most critical would be the insurance comment up there in the thread..

It is what is on the reg doc that counts.

M1 and N1 are the same in terms of seat anchorage test loads.

So if you add a rear door window that makes it meet all the requirements of the DPV rules, then it is you DUTY as a law abiding citizen to tell DVLA and ensure the reg document is 100% correct and thus increase the speed limits 🙂 (although it might bite you with dearer road tax car vs van).

If your insurer knows it is a crew van then they should be happy.

All this car derived van / LCV stuff is a bit of a farce. It made sense 20 years ago with lightweight cars and leaf sprung / drum braked vans. The lines are now very blurred with plenty of cars over 2 tonnes and small vans a smidge over 2 tonnes GVW (e.g. VW Caddy, Transit Connect) with car suspension, brakes and handling.

As far as I can tell my van is a factory crew, full bulkhead, matching uphulstory, twin sliding doors with opening windows, rear windows, etc.
Insurance know it is 6 seats, just the V5C that is wrong.
I will get it changed and check out the “dual purpose vehicles”

thanks all

The term “dual purpose vehicle” originates from Regulation 3(2) of the Road Vehicles (Construction & use) Regulations 1986 [C&U(1986)] which defines (inter alia) a “dual purpose vehicle” as follows:-

dual-purpose vehicle

a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods or burden of any description, being a vehicle of which the unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg, and which either—
(i) is so constructed or adapted that the driving power of the engine is, or by the appropriate use of the controls of the vehicle can be, transmitted to all the wheels of the vehicle; or
(ii) satisfies the following conditions as to construction, namely—
(a) the vehicle must be permanently fitted with a rigid roof, with or without a sliding panel;
(b) the area of the vehicle to the rear of the driver’s seat must—
(i) be permanently fitted with at least one row of transverse seats (fixed or folding) for two or more passengers and those seats must be properly sprung or cushioned and provided with upholstered back-rests, attached either to the seats or to a side or the floor of the vehicle; and
(ii) be lit on each side and at the rear by a window or windows of glass or other transparent material having an area or aggregate area of not less than 1850 square centimetres on each side and not less than 770 square centimetres at the rear; and
(c) the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the row of transverse seats satisfying the requirements specified in head (i) of sub-paragraph (b) (or, if there is more than one such row of seats, the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the rearmost such row) must, when the seats are ready for use, be not less than one-third of the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the rearmost part of the floor of the vehicle.

just a bit of back ground on micks post. basically you need rear windows and you need not to have the LWB version i reckon otherwise you’d fall fowl of the 1/3rd rule

got rear windows, but LWB. I will carefully measure the 1/3 rule distances.
Will also check out what the tax I would pay if M1 – I know the emissions so should be ok to calculate.

I think the 1/3 rule was to stop people fitting a rear facing bench back to back with the front row of seats.

The bulkhead probably needs a small window as it states the rear seats must be lit by the rear window (but only needs to be small – 770sq cm is only 27 x 27).

The Trafics, Vivaros etc are built at Luton. The same conversion is available aftermarket from a company based at Millbrook (i.e. not far down the road from the assembly plant). Might be worth giving them a ring to discuss dvla issues as they must sort something for aftermarket conversions.

http://doublecabin.co.uk/

Once it meets the regs, send application to DVLA with lots of supporting information (photos, measurements, weigh bridge ticket). They should change it without hassle. A colleague just did a motorhome conversion and it was no hassle provided he sent all the required proof.

simple way to tell.. did you pay vat on purchase price.. yes = commercial no = 60mph.

Not that simple really, I paid VAT on my T5 Kombi, it’s an M1, go figure…….

“I paid VAT on my T5 Kombi, it’s an M1, go figure…….”

was bought by a business who reclaimed the vat – thus vat is chargable on the sale price.

had it been a car the vat would have just been added to the purchase price and you would not have known , vans are sold as +vat to make the price seem lower to business buyers who can claim it back. = low window price.

trail_rat

Correct, hence the statement that if you pay VAT it’s commercial and is limited to 60mph is erroneous.

Not that simple really, I paid VAT on my T5 Kombi, it’s an M1, go figure…….

new? and did you register it? was it already registered?

Regardless of how you bought it, vat was paid on your vehicle when it was new ( be it a car, van, boat)

The difference is a business can claim it back and this must be repaid when it goes into the private market.

just measured the distances. Steering wheel to back of seats is 140cm, steering wheel to back of van is 340cm, so comfortably within the 1.3 limit. Will look at the other regulations and try a change at DVLA

But a bulkhead window is only internal. You’d surely have to fit windows in the rear doors too?

all commercial vehicle pay vat on the full purchase price other vehicles only pay vat on the dealers mark up

scotroutes – I have internal bulkhead window and rear door windows 🙂

Trail_rat

I am not disputing that, i bought mine second hand, the point is that just because you pay vat doesn’t automatically mean its commercial and limited to 60mph…….

Not sure where all the VAT confusion is going to end up….. 🙂

Staying on a sensible subject – let us know how you get on with DVLA – would be interesting to know what happens about the RFL – I guess a DPV might still be classed as a van (as it has dual use as both van and car). I’ll ask the camper guy at work – that was a big van and engine so sure he’d have said if his RFL rocketed converting from van to camper (which also gets the increased speed limits).

When my Iveco was changed to a camper van the DVLA only changed the body type to Motor caravan. Taxation class and vehicle category (N1) remained unchanged. This seems to be the norm for camper conversions.

A quick update…

Took my van to the police today so they could have a look.
I was told that according to them it is classed as a car and has car speed limits. speeding ticket cancelled.
He said that there is lots of confusion, and I probably got the ticket as the side windows are darkened and so difficult to see when driving past.

He told me to take some photo’s, keep them on my PC, and if I get other tickets to just email the photos to the relevant police and they will cancel them (assuming driving within car limits).

Now I’m not sure if I am going to bother trying to change vehicle type at DVLA or not.

I’ve owned both a VW T5 Kombi and Merc Vito Dualiner. Paid VAT on both, and sold them with VAT (I’m VAT reg). So don’t rely on the VAT element. It is a stupidly confusing law though, that very few drivers are even aware of.

andy8442,

it has nothing at all to do with if you pay vat or not.
It is to do with the vehicle type as noted on the V5C form.

My van is down as light commercial, and so lower speed limits.
identical vans can be down as multi purpose vehicles, and so higher speed limits.

I have had it confirmed by the police today that they consider my van a multi purpose vehicle, and so higher limits apply.

If you change your van from light goods vehicle to multi-purpose vehicle will the VED be reclassified to C02 emissions based rather than standard light goods?

The original type approval will define the vehicle type. The European type approval 2007/46 (which I believe the Traffic complies to) gives the below definition but it is up to manufacturer how they define it. This will then be listed on the vehicles Certificate of Conformity when it it built at the factory and then what is put on the V5C.

AF Multi-purpose
vehicle

Motor vehicle other than those mentioned in AA to AE intended for carrying passengers
and their luggage or goods, in a single compartment. However, if such a vehicle meets
both of the following conditions:
(i) the number of seating positions, excluding the driver, is not more than six;
a ‘seating position’ shall be regarded as existing if the vehicle is provided with ‘accessible’
seat anchorages;
‘accessible’ shall mean those anchorages, which can be used. In order to prevent
anchorages being ‘accessible’, the manufacturer shall physically obstruct their use, for
example by welding over cover plates or by fitting similar permanent fixtures which
cannot be removed by use of normally available tools; and

(ii) P – (M + N × 68) > N × 68
where:
P = technically permissible maximum laden mass in kg
M = mass in running order in kg
N = number of seating positions excluding the driver.
This vehicle is not considered to be a vehicle of category M1.