- This topic has 316 replies, 54 voices, and was last updated 9 years ago by nealglover.
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Religion in schools
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nealgloverFree Member
Because my other Half is a teacher at the school, and sometimes they have problems getting enough adults to supervise the kids on the trips.
As someone who would have previously been against these sort of trips (but without any actual knowledge of them, like most on here) I’ve had my opinion changed by actually seeing what happens and what the children get from it.
Having seen it first hand, I can’t see a single negative in it.
And as I said, that’s from a staunch EX catholic who has no time for religion at all generally.
miketuallyFree MemberI’ve had my opinion changed by actually seeing what happens and what the children get from it.
You’ve seen what one group of students gets from it. In other schools, in other contexts, there maybe very different experiences.
Current examples include religious schools redacting questions on evolution in GCSE biology papers, Academy chains with a religious main sponsor where science teachers are pressurised into teaching intelligent design, schools enforcing religious dress codes on female teachers.
meftyFree MemberCurrent examples include religious schools redacting questions on evolution in GCSE biology papers, Academy chains with a religious main sponsor where science teachers are pressurised into teaching intelligent design, schools enforcing religious dress codes on female teachers.
care to link to some primary sources as i smell bullshit except in maybe an odd case which will probably be put in special measures.
Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middling Edition
Latest Singletrack VideosFresh Goods Friday 696: The Middlin...miketuallyFree Membercare to link to some primary sources as i smell bullshit except in maybe an odd case which will probably be put in special measures.
Are these good enough as primary sources?
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/mar/09/schools.religion
these are just the high-profile cases that I’m aware of off the top of my head.
miketuallyFree MemberThose are hardley representative or the norm.
Well, that’s ok then 🙄
miketuallyFree MemberHow do we feel about, Prayer Spaces in Schools which “enable children and young people to explore faith and spirituality from a broadly Christian perspective in a safe, creative and interactive way”?
It’s an initiative of 24-7 Prayer which “exists to reconcile the world to God in Jesus Christ” who claim that people have been healed of various conditions, including eczema and Chron’s disease in their prayer rooms.
They’re one of many groups going into state schools to
push their beliefsoffer support to children.If you live near Bristol, your kids could go on a trip to Noah’s Ark zoo!
miketuallyFree MemberWhat’s wrong with studying fairy stories?
Nothing at all, provided they’re presented that way, and not as fact.
meftyFree MemberI would hope as a teacher you would know what a primary source is, clearly not.
As far as what have you produced is concerned:
(i) The first one is an Orthodox Jewish School in Stamford Hill, one of the two main areas of Orthodox Jews in London. Would I prefer the parents at this school gave their children a better chance at answering exam questions? Yes but who am I, or indeed is the government to determine, how they bring up their children?
(ii) The second is a scare story, long on irrelevant facts but the kids will still be taught evolution.
(iii) This school has been closed down.
The point being that this is not wide spread and is certainly completely alien to what the Church of England has been teaching in schools for years.
seosamh77Free Membermiketually – Member
Those are hardley representative or the norm.
Well, that’s ok thenI never said that. but you are using extreme cases to vilify a larger group. Which is fairly disingenuous.
miketuallyFree MemberI would hope as a teacher you would know what a primary source is, clearly not.
As a teacher, I finished marking at 9pm and have just got the kids to bed, so can’t be arsed trawling the internet.
you are using extreme cases to vilify a larger group. Which is fairly disingenuous.
I was using those cases to counter an earlier example.
completely alien to what the Church of England has been teaching in schools for years.
Which is what?
miketuallyFree Member(i) The first one is an Orthodox Jewish School in Stamford Hill, one of the two main areas of Orthodox Jews in London. Would I prefer the parents at this school gave their children a better chance at answering exam questions? Yes but who am I, or indeed is the government to determine, how they bring up their children?
It’s a state-funded school. I think that gives the government some say in what exam questions they should answer in a science exam.
molgripsFree MemberNothing at all, provided they’re presented that way, and not as fact.
Are there non-faith schools where RE is actually doing this? I mean do we have evidence for real not just STW supposition? It certainly wasn’t like this in our school, and that was 25 years ago.
JunkyardFree Memberbut who am I, or indeed is the government to determine, how they bring up their children?
I think the govt and we are paying for it [ we are I checked] therefore we all have a say in what facts and truths are taught in THIS school. Let them answer the question anyway they see fit and mark it as we would any other school. if they wish to answer with creationism then let it be marked according to the agreed mark sheet.
Furthermore parents are not infallible, many of the parents in the closed Islamic school were disappointed , liked it and wanted it to stay open for examplemiketuallyFree MemberAre there non-faith schools where RE is actually doing this? I mean do we have evidence for real not just STW supposition? It certainly wasn’t like this in our school, and that was 25 years ago.
Remember, RE is distinct from worship.
My primary school (I left in 1988) had a daily act of collective worship, including hymns and prayer, plus a prayer before lunch was eaten. It wasn’t a faith school, it was a bog standard primary on the edge of a council estate, with no link to a church.
The guidance on what RE/worship should be carried out in all state schools is fascinating:
Collective worship in schools should aim to provide the opportunity for pupils to worship God … All registered pupils attending a maintained school should take part in daily collective worship … , it must in some sense reflect something special or separate from ordinary school activities and it should be concerned with reverence or veneration paid to a divine being or power … ‘Taking part’ in collective worship implies more than simply passive attendance
I don’t think most parents realise that this is a legal requirement in all schools.
JunkyardFree MemberGenerally speaking RE teachers* believe in much the same way as economists believe in economics and the market
We get a self selected non representative group of believers doing the teaching [ generally]just as we get generally right wing folk in economics. Not many atheists or commies study the the the thing they dislike and then go on to teach it* I have nothing more than anecdote and some limited experience – no figures are available that I am aware of but I am prepared to be illuminated by evidence unlike the faith based approach to understanding 😛
meftyFree MemberAs a teacher, I finished marking at 9pm and have just got the kids to bed, so can’t be arsed trawling the internet.
If you spent less tine posting on here you would probably finish alot earlier.
I was using those cases to counter an earlier example.
Which I presume you think is an extreme case.
Which is what?
Accepted science, maths, humanities and a bit of wishy washy theology.
miketuallyFree MemberI’m getting flashbacks to primary school assemblies!
This was the hymn book. I remember pretending to pick the nose of the lad on the left, and feeding his bogies to him.
I also remember rewording some hymns slightly:
Who built the ark,
No-one, no-one,
Who built the ark,
Bloody no-one built the ark!🙂
miketuallyFree MemberIf you spent less tine posting on here you would probably finish alot earlier.
This is perfect for ten minute breaks.
Which I presume you think is an extreme case.
And?
Accepted science, maths, humanities and a bit of wishy washy theology.
Which includes specific reference to a divine creator.
molgripsFree MemberThat definition of collective worship is easily vague enough to avoid having to talk about God. Again – in my school, our assemblies were secular.
Generally speaking RE teachers* believe
I said NOT STW supposition. I’m asking for actual evidence that RE in schools is actually Chrstian doctrine presented as fact. Your imaginings don’t help.
miketuallyFree MemberThat definition of collective worship is easily vague enough to avoid having to talk about God
How do you do “reverence or veneration paid to a divine being” in a ‘broadly Christian’ way without mentioning God?
JunkyardFree MemberThat definition of collective worship is easily vague enough to avoid having to talk about God. Again – in my school, our assemblies were secular.
Collective worship in schools should aim to provide the opportunity for pupils to worship God
Its not but some choose to do it less well than others.
I’m asking for actual evidence that RE in schools is actually Chrstian doctrine presented as fact. Your imaginings don’t help.
Nice put down but i dont think the evidence you ask for is available so you can guess either side of that one from anecdotes
meftyFree MemberThis is perfect for ten minute breaks.
You take alot of ten minute breaks, you should add that up some time.
And?
At least, it is a primary source which you singularly failed to come up with.
Which includes specific reference to a divine creator.
And stuff about other religions, which don’t necessarily believe in a divine creator.
molgripsFree MemberHow do you do “reverence or veneration paid to a divine being” in a ‘broadly Christian’ way without mentioning God?
Notice the liberal use of the word ‘should’ in the definition.[/quote]
theocbFree MemberThe priest gave a talk to the kids after the worship at the Hindu Temple yesterday.
One of the main points of the talk was that there is good in everybody, no matter what faith/religion (or lack of either.)
And that the kids should try hard to nurture the good in themselves and look for the good in others.At this point I hope the teacher and other sensible adults pointed out that these are the words of a crackpot so take them with a
pinchbucket full of salt.Wise words from loony tunes is hardly a positive experience for school children IMO.
miketuallyFree MemberYou take alot of ten minute breaks, you should add that up some time.
1. I don’t
2. Piss offAt least, it is a primary source which you singularly failed to come up with.
It was one person’s story about one school trip.
And stuff about other religions, which don’t necessarily believe in a divine creator.
In RE, yes. The guidance was describing a compulsory act of Christian worship. They should happen in churches, voluntarily, on Sundays.
JunkyardFree MemberAll maintained schools must provide religious education and daily
collective worship for all registered pupils and promote their spiritual, moral and cultural development.
Local agreed RE syllabuses for county schools and equivalent
grant-maintained schools must in future reflect the fact that religious
traditions in the country are in the main Christian whilst taking account of the teaching and practices of other principal religions. Syllabuses must be periodically reviewed.
Collective worship in county schools and equivalent grant-maintained
schools must be wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character,
though not distinctive of any particular Christian denomination.The should do relates to what they MUST do – its the first page of the article he linked and it is advice on how to do what they must do.
FWIW i got lucky I had not read it either 😉
meftyFree Member1. I don’t
2. Piss offAs such a disbeliever in religion I would have thought you could cope with reality.
miketuallyFree MemberI know all about my own flaws, thanks. Good still loves me.
polyFree MemberAre there non-faith schools where RE is actually doing this? I mean do we have evidence for real not just STW supposition? It certainly wasn’t like this in our school, and that was 25 years ago.
It depends what you mean by “RE” – typically there are two distinct activities – one is a lesson like geography or biology or maths. Sometimes referred to as Religious Education or Religious and Moral Education. Typically involves studying a variety of religions, and belief systems.
In contrast however, as the OP referred to, and others including myself (as both pupil of similar vintage to yourself and a parent) I can assure you that Religious Observance is practiced in (some) non-denominational schools. (Indeed as I posted earlier it is expected 6x a year in Scottish Schools). That religious observance typically involves singing of hyms, prayer, bible readings (or telling of bible stories), is often led by a minister of religion and some may be held in churches. These acts of worship are never accompanied by any critical review. Indeed when I challenged our school last year when they talked about “the true meaning of Christmas, and why we give presents” – the theme of such a service I am still waiting to hear back why there was no reference to pre Christian pagan winter festivals which include the exchange of gifts during winter months…
grumFree MemberSo has anyone come up with any reason why Christianity should be promoted in schools yet?
mikewsmithFree Membernot really but your a very bad man for suggesting it shouldn’t
miketuallyFree MemberSo has anyone come up with any reason why Christianity should be promoted in schools yet?
A Hindu said something nice.
teamhurtmoreFree MemberWe have come a long way from the days when parents complained that their children didn’t get the main part in the nativity play (are we still allowed to mention such things without causing offence) or reading the prayers or lesson!
nealgloverFree MemberYou’ve seen what one group of students gets from it. In other schools, in other contexts, there maybe very different experiences.
There may be other, different personal experiences of kids being taught about other (non Christian) religions in school, but I’ve not heard any here ?
So I only have my own to go on.
Current examples include religious schools redacting questions on evolution in GCSE biology papers, Academy chains with a religious main sponsor where science teachers are pressurised into teaching intelligent design, schools enforcing religious dress codes on female teachers.
I’m not saying everything related to religion in education is perfect.
I was talking specifically about kids being educated about other religions and faiths, rather than only in the “default” Christian religions, as mentioned earlier.
I was using those cases to counter an earlier example
You may think you were.
My point was specifically aimed at the comment that kids don’t get educated about other religions and don’t go to Mosques, temples etc.
And as I said, in my own personal experience, they do.
The examples you raised are not really relevant to the point I was making, and certainly don’t counter it in any way.
miketuallyFree MemberIt’s almost like I was scanning the thread rather than reading in depth 🙂
grumFree MemberMy point was specifically aimed at the comment that kids don’t get educated about other religions and don’t go to Mosques, temples etc.
Yet another straw man.
nealgloverFree MemberAt this point I hope the teacher and other sensible adults pointed out that these are the words of a crackpot so take them with a pinch bucket full of salt.
Wise words from loony tunes is hardly a positive experience for school children IMO.Thankfully all the adults there realised that the object of the exercise was to teach the children that different people believe different things, and that’s ok.
The differences are not a reason to dislike or mock people.
Maybe next time you should come along, it’s aimed at 8 year olds, but I’m sure they could slow it down a bit for you.
nealgloverFree MemberYet another straw man.
How so ?
I replied and quoted the person that said it.
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