Religion in schools

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  • Religion in schools
  • Premier Icon Northwind
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    seosamh77 – Member

    How exactly does this brainwashing work?

    The same way religious indoctrination always works. Normalize rituals as part of everyday life, “educate” people in things to worry about (ideally make some normal everyday activities a sin, for maximum guilt) and tell them you can fix that. Ideally do it as young as possible. Better still, do it in a school, make it an opt-out so that anyone not taking part feels left out of something their mates are doing, because kids love being outsiders. And it’s all in a learning environment where you’re used to trusting what you’re told, 2+2 is 4, i before e except after c, jesus died for your sins…

    Religion can be a great thing for people- I’m not religious, I don’t really understand it but I can respect people’s choice. But we’re talking here about trying to influence that choice, in the finest traditions of evangelical faith.

    And don’t tell me it won’t influence them; why would we do it otherwise? It’s not purely educational, that’s obvious. It’s as convincing as when tobacco companies say their adverts don’t influence people to take up smoking.

    ocrider
    Member

    If religious people want to indoctrinate their children I suppose that’s up to them – but no way should it be state funded or happen at normal state schools.

    I agree to a certain extent, but from another perspective, what would happen if all religious education was wiped off the curriculum apart from in private religious schools?

    Junkyard
    Member

    How exactly does this brainwashing work?

    If it does not work continuing to do this has no impact on the church so one needs to ask why they would object if it stopped

    As mike notes its conditioning if you want to claim it doe snot work notice how many folk who never ever go to church and never will still call themselves religious and broadly christian

    Well in society there are people that believe it is a good idea, in tolerant society, we try and accommodate these people.

    Gay marriage they dont seem keen to tolerate that in our society and needs special rules so they can treat them differently from every other body.

    Remind what their tolerant message is to me- a non believer who sins I believe they say- what exactly happens to me then? I bet its a lovely message of how much they tolerate my free choice and respect it….its is isn’t it?

    English schools do not necessarily have a Christian bias.

    They do. By law.

    What the law says and what actually happens can some times differ.

    grum
    Member

    I wasn’t made to feel like a troublemaker by anybody, and had the freedom to make my decision and do what I felt suited me.

    Lucky you.

    I notice no-one has yet come up with any argument as to why children should be indoctrinated into a religion – just reasons why it might not be particularly damaging for some people.

    Are you all similarly relaxed about Muslim faith schools?

    what would happen if all religious education was wiped off the curriculum apart from in private religious schools?

    What do you mean by religious education? I’m not suggesting kids in state funded schools shouldn’t learn about religion, that would be ridiculous.

    iolo
    Member

    OP, I assume you won’t be taking Good Friday and Easter Monday off from work as these are religious holidays.
    How about Christmas? Work through that holiday too. Don’t give anybody any gifts. 25th December will be just another day for you then?
    I couldn’t care less about religion but go to church when required-Weddings/Funerals/Whatever.The kids will make their own mind on religion when they grow up. You never know, they might shave their heads and chant Harri Krishna for the rest of their lives. It will be their choice. Get over it.

    grum
    Member

    How about Christmas? Work through that holiday too. Don’t give anybody any gifts. 25th December will be just another day for you then?

    You do know that christmas is a tradition that has absolutely nothing to do with christianity don’t you?

    Saturnalia was an ancient Roman festival in honor of the deity Saturn, held on December 17 of the Julian calendar and later expanded with festivities through December 23. The holiday was celebrated with a sacrifice at the Temple of Saturn, in the Roman Forum, and a public banquet, followed by private gift-giving, continual partying, and a carnival atmosphere that overturned Roman social norms: gambling was permitted, and masters provided table service for their slaves.[1] The poet Catullus called it “the best of days.”[2]

    Funnily enough the church seems to have sacked off the bit about reversing social norms.

    Premier Icon miketually
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    OP, I assume you won’t be taking Good Friday and Easter Monday off from work as these are religious holidays.
    How about Christmas? Work through that holiday too. Don’t give anybody any gifts. 25th December will be just another day for you then?

    I celebrate the arrival of spring and the winter equinox, so take time off for those πŸ™‚

    Seriously, they’re the result of out Christian heritage and culture. As a cultural Christians, many atheists celebrate Easter (yay, chocolate eggs!) and Christmas (yay, booze and pressies!) without giving any thought to their Christian meaning.

    How many people actually believe Jesus was born of a virgin in a stable and literally resurrected?

    grum
    Member

    When the early Roman Church established a festival to celebrate the Messiah’s birth, it timed that festival to coincide with an existing pagan festival celebrating the birthday of the sun god. By co-opting existing pagan rituals and customs, the church sought to win the pagan masses to its idea of Christianity, allowing converts to continue to practice familiar customsβ€”just calling them by different names.

    The “mother and child” motif in religion was well known in the ancient pagan world. The ancient Babylonians and Egyptians worshipped a “Madonna” whom they revered as the “Queen of Heaven”β€”a title that the Roman Church would apply centuries later to Mary, the mother of Jesus. In Egypt, Isis was the mother and Horus was the child. In Mesopotamia it was Ishtar and Tammuz.

    …..

    So, instead of seeking to put Christ back into Christmas, we must acknowledge that He was never there in the first place! Christmas never was Christian! True Christians will give it back to the pagans, to whom it has belonged all along! Instead of borrowing from the world around us, we ought to take our religious customs and practices directly from the Bible. Then we will be worshiping our Creator in spirit and truth, just as He teaches us to do (John 4:24).

    http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/magazines/2004/november-december/is-christmas-christian

    iolo
    Member

    You do know that christmas is a tradition that has absolutely nothing to do with christianity don’t you?

    No. As I said

    I couldn’t care less about religion

    I did think Christianity involved a bit of Christ’s life and I’m sure being born is probably there somewhere. Please enlighten.

    Premier Icon miketually
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    You never know, they might shave their heads and chant Harri Krishna for the rest of their lives. It will be their choice. Get over it.

    It’s unlikely they’ll freely choose, as they’ll have been repeatedly told that the unbelievable things Christians believe are fine and normal whereas other religions’ unbelievable tenets will seem very odd.

    It could be argued that official religion in schools, on TV, on the radio, in civic life undermines children’s free choice later in life.

    grum
    Member

    I did think Christianity involved a bit of Christ’s life and I’m sure being born is probably there somewhere. Please enlighten.

    Read the link above.

    deadlydarcy
    Member

    How many people actually believe Jesus was born of a virgin in a stable and literally resurrected?

    Pretty much nobody I’d say. I’d also include a few RC priests and Christian Brothers I met over the years in that number.

    surfer
    Member

    I couldn’t care less about religion

    Then why did you assume that Atheists would not be taking those days as holidays?

    boxfish
    Member

    OP, I assume you won’t be taking Good Friday and Easter Monday off from work as these are religious holidays.

    They’re also known as Bank Holidays. Does that mean you can only take the day off if

    a) You work in a bank?
    b) You are a Christian?
    c) You are a Christian Banker?

    πŸ™„

    piemonster
    Member

    d) It’s a day off, and im not complaining

    Premier Icon MoreCashThanDash
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    I’m always intrigued that the anti-religion brigade are SO touchy when challenged.

    All I said was that going to church was not a bad thing to try, in the same way that seeing a service at a mosque is not a bad thing to try.

    It won’t make you a fundamentalist terrorist of the Irish or Muslim variety. Militant refusal to apparently even consider such a possibility is just as unhealthy, in my view.

    Which some of you think is the stupidest thing you’ve read on here, apparently. You need to check out a few more threads! πŸ˜†

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    Religion can be a great thing for people-

    “People whose lives are barren and insecure seem to show a greater willingness to obey than people who are self-sufficient and self-confident. To the frustrated, freedom from responsibility is more attractive than freedom from restraint. They are eager to barter their independence for relief of the burdens of willing, deciding and being responsible for inevitable failure. They willingly abdicate the directing of their lives to those who want to plan, command and shoulder all responsibility.” – Eric Hoffer

    If this supposed indoctrination was successful children would REALLY believe in their religion. It would be like the 17th century or the crusades all over again and you wouldn’t be able to move for religious strife.

    I don’t think there is some evil plot to turn all state school pupils into Christian religious zealots.

    Although nativity plays, Easter baskets and a bit of hymn singing seems good at producing atheists with really serious issues.

    ocrider
    Member

    What do you mean by religious education? I’m not suggesting kids in state funded schools shouldn’t learn about religion, that would be ridiculous.

    Bienvenue en France πŸ˜‰

    I think it’s absolutely nuts too FWIW. On one hand you have muslim raised kids on council estates who blame everything bad in their lives on occidental decadence and the jews, whilst on the other, you have the bourgeois catholics (who blame the state of modern society on muslims and jews) sending their kids into private schools with cateschism from 3 years of age.

    At least with general religious education you can teach tolerance, which should be the aim of it, rather than moralising.

    boxfish
    Member

    At least with general religious education you can teach tolerance, which should be the aim of it, rather than moralising.

    He speaketh the truth.

    deadlydarcy
    Member

    a bit of hymn singing

    Hymns were never that shrill when I was at school. Are the CofE ones worse? πŸ™‚

    grum
    Member

    I’m always intrigued that the anti-religion brigade are SO touchy when challenged.
    All I said was that going to church was not a bad thing to try, in the same way that seeing a service at a mosque is not a bad thing to try.

    No, what you said was that not wanting kids to be indoctrinated in schools is just as bad as extreme religious fundamentalism. Which is absurd nonsense.

    It’s not about being touchy – it’s about pulling people up on it when they come out with absurd nonsense.

    nealglover
    Member

    I bet they don’t actually go and take part in a service at a mosque or synagogue though do they?

    Yes.

    I was on a school trip yesterday with a class of YR3 kids.

    We went to the local Hindu Temple and the kids took part in a service that was part of the Hindi New Year Festival.

    Fire, Chanting, Offerings to God’s Incarnations, all the stuff atheists get wound up about really, it was great πŸ˜‰

    grum
    Member

    Is a hindu temple a mosque or synagogue then? πŸ˜‰

    Sounds good as a cultural learning experience. Going to one thing occasionally isn’t the same as repeated worship of one faith though.

    And we never did anything like that at our school.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
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    Gay marriage they dont seem keen to tolerate that in our society and needs special rules so they can treat them differently from every other body.

    I’m not sticking up for the church and their **** up ideas, I believe they should be brought kicking and screaming into the 21st century, on the Gay marraige issue, I’d deny them the legal right to marry people unless they accommodate all.

    Don’t take my attitudes to faith schools as approval for every view in religions, I’m not religious.

    I just don’t happen to think, from my experience that it is a bad thing to have the options there for people, nor do I believe indoctrination happens at these schools. As I mentioned that happens in the home.

    Premier Icon D0NK
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    If this supposed indoctrination was successful children would REALLY believe in their religion. It would be like the 17th century or the crusades all over again and you wouldn’t be able to move for religious strife.

    nah I think that would involve radicalism, for which you need a nice broad base of “default” believers, which you get if you indoctrinate all your kids (see the UK stats for people who never go to church but class themselves as christian)

    Objective RE is a good idea but afaik it’s done with a very CoE spin on it at most UK schools.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
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    but no way should it be state funded or happen at normal state schools.

    On this point, why not, don’t religious people pay taxes?

    Premier Icon Northwind
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    MoreCashThanDash – Member

    All I said was that going to church was not a bad thing to try, in the same way that seeing a service at a mosque is not a bad thing to try.

    I’d agree with that but that’s not what’s on offer- we’re talking about christian observance as part of the school day, not an occasional trial visit but an ongoing and constant presence. And no attempt (or possibility) to do the same for an assortment of faiths. So it is about one faith over others.

    surfer
    Member

    On this point, why not, don’t religious people pay taxes?

    People, or religious institutions?

    Premier Icon franksinatra
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    OP, I assume you won’t be taking Good Friday and Easter Monday off from work as these are religious holidays.

    Funnily enough, they are not bank holidays for my employer so I will be working

    we’re talking about christian observance as part of the school day, not an occasional trial visit but an ongoing and constant presence. And no attempt (or possibility) to do the same for an assortment of faiths. So it is about one faith over others.

    ..which a nice full circle to my original point, the fact that Christianity seems to be the ‘default’ position and is not taught in the same way as other religious which seem to be more about ‘look what other people believe in, whilst the rest of us are Christians.’

    surfer
    Member

    All I said was that going to church was not a bad thing to try, in the same way that seeing a service at a mosque is not a bad thing to try.

    I would be against my children wasting their time with any crackpot idea never mind all of them.

    Premier Icon miketually
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    we’re talking about christian observance as part of the school day, not an occasional trial visit but an ongoing and constant presence. And no attempt (or possibility) to do the same for an assortment of faiths. So it is about one faith over others.

    This.

    “Today, children, we’re going to visit a mosque. That’s a bit like a church, but for people who are wrong. Not like a proper church, where the vicar who does an assembly every week works.”

    Premier Icon franksinatra
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    I would be against my children wasting their time with any crackpot idea never mind all of them.

    like it or not, religion dominates the many aspects of today’s world. To be naive about religious beliefs altogether would be a bad thing and led to less tolerance and understanding

    which a nice full circle to my original point, the fact that Christianity seems to be the ‘default’ position and is not taught in the same way as other religious which seem to be more about ‘look what other people believe in, whilst the rest of us are Christians.’

    True at your local school possibly because most pupils come from a Christian background (not necessarily “practicing” though). If the school was say, 40% Hindu 40% Muslim it may take a different approach.

    This.

    “Today, children, we’re going to visit a mosque. That’s a bit like a church, but for people who are wrong. Not like a proper church, where the vicar who does an assembly every week works.”

    Or this

    “Jews, Muslims and Christians all believe in the same God. They just choose to do it in different ways. Today we will look at some of the ways they are the same. We will start with the story of Adam and Eve.”

    Premier Icon miketually
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    Or this

    “Jews, Muslims and Christians all believe in the same God. They just choose to do it in different ways. Today we will look at some of the ways they are the same. We will start with the story of Adam and Eve.”

    This is exactly how religion should be taught in school, as comparative religion. It should happen in specific lessons, and not take the form of worship at all.

    “Christians believe that…”
    “Muslims believe that…”
    “Jews believe that…”
    “Hindus believe that…”
    “Sikhs believe that…”

    Of course, then you get into the differences between different sects of the same religion, so it’s actually impossible to teach it clearly.

    “Christians believe that marriage is between one man and a woman. Apart from the ones who don’t.”

    nealglover
    Member

    Is a hindu temple a mosque or synagogue then?

    No, but the mosque and the synagogue trips are already booked in.

    I would be against my children wasting their time with any crackpot idea never mind all of them.

    The priest gave a talk to the kids after the worship at the Hindu Temple yesterday.

    One of the main points of the talk was that there is good in everybody, no matter what faith/religion (or lack of either.)
    And that the kids should try hard to nurture the good in themselves and look for the good in others.

    What an awful “crackpot idea” to fill the heads of 8 year olds with eh πŸ™„

    crankboy
    Member

    “OP, I assume you won’t be taking Good Friday and Easter Monday off from work as these are religious holidays.”

    why do Christians in this country take Christmas day off given that Jesus appears to have been born on January the 4th? or in June depending which way you work it out .

    Easter is even more questionable but at least the chocolate eggs and bunnies get us back to it’s real meaning .

    The Brick spoke wisdom on page 2.

    Premier Icon miketually
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    One of the main points of the talk was that there is good in everybody, no matter what faith/religion (or lack of either.)
    And that the kids should try hard to nurture the good in themselves and look for the good in others.

    What an awful “crackpot idea” to fill the heads of 8 year olds with eh

    That’s brill.

    When do you visit the evangelical baptist church who tell them they’ll burn for all eternity unless they accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal saviour?

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