I think Scottish Power might be owned by a Spanish company ? So it is the euro you need to watch.

Basically it comes down to a choice – the status quo or Salmond’s vision of how things will be

Sorry, but wrong on both. The status quo isn’t on offer, if there’s a No vote then there’s a lot more austerity cuts on the way and the Barnett formula is probably being scrapped so even less funding. Whereas a Yes vote isn’t an endorsement of Salmond or the SNP, it’s a vote to give us the chance to pick our own government. An independent Scotland might go and vote for the Tories – unlikely but possible.

On point one, if you stop being pedantic you know fine well what i mean by status quo. Likewise your comments on further austerity and the barnett formula are pure speculation, nothing more.

On point two, the no voters aren’t against the right for us to govern ourselves or pick our own government, we’re against the split from the UK or more importantly the perceived disadvantages that comes with it. Salmond’s vision of independence which he is trying to sell paints a very rosey future, Peoples decisions will clearly be greatly swayed by whether they beleive him or not. I don’t and as such I’m a no.

It’s incredible that we can be this close to polling day and yet so many people still don’t understand what the choices are.

Being unable to choose is very different to not understanding the choices. The main problem is, the choice has to be made based on contradictory claims, predictions and assumptions made by people – on both sides – who I instinctively don’t really trust.

Vote YES, should reduce the likelihood of future Labour governments for the rest of us.

Vote YES, should reduce the likelihood of future Labour governments for the rest of us.

I think this is why there’s so much vitriol on the Currency thread from non voters. They’re scared that Scotland leaving will leave them with Tory governments for a long time. Maybe if that does happen they’ll start to examine why we want to go our own way and campaign for either a more representative election process or more powers for local government.

Being unable to choose is very different to not understanding the choices. The main problem is, the choice has to be made based on contradictory claims, predictions and assumptions made by people – on both sides – who I instinctively don’t really trust.
[/quote]True – but I was referring to the point that neither Devo Max nor Alex Salmond are on the voting slip.

Fair enough 🙂

The main problem is, the choice has to be made based on contradictory claims, predictions and assumptions made by people – on both sides – who I instinctively don’t really trust.

That element of instinctive dis-trust sits with me as well.

From an early stage I’ve thought that too many answers given to reasonable questions asked have been along the lines of “We’ll address that after vote” without really even proposing a theory / possibility. The counter to the lack of theory/proposals was then often along the lines of “but the UK government isn’t giving us the information from which to make a proposal”, an argument that I felt on some occasions was a cop-out. I think for some questions, reasonable worst/best case range of values would be have sufficed.

I also have in my mind that some of the yes campaign has targeted appealing to those on benefits and that their benefits will get better and better … leaving me thinking “aye, and whose pocket is that going to come out of? … quite possibly likely mine.

I dont disagree with thought / stats that Scotland is rich in natural resources … but at what cost to get them out … will be trash the beauty of Scotland to extract it for money?

Why would Westminster always be moving to the right?

People have no idea what’s going to happen in the future. None at all. So don’t say stuff like that as if it’s a fact.

Personally I think it oscillates, and the amount of left wing rhetoric from everyday people is growing. It’s not random either. Labour was in power, then Thathcer was a reaction to that, then New Labour was a reaction to that. Now there’s going to be a reaction to the fact that all three main parties are homogenous and discredited.

Most people on the street have left wing sentiments, after all.

molgrips – Member

Why would Westminster always be moving to the right?

There doesn’t seem any potential whatsoever for the Tories to move left, and Labour have no interest in being any more than 0.1mm to the left of the tories, since they’ve given up on the whole being a labour party thing. So where is the drive leftwards going to come from? Some new party? Hardly, the established parties and media have shown how good they are at putting down change.

At present any momentum is in the UKIP direction, and they aren’t socialists!

All the better reason for Scotland to break the Westminster stranglehold around its neck. Imagine how you Scots will feel when the austerity axe starts to swing; you had the chance to detach yourself from it, but you were too chicken to take it… Oh well, we’re all in this together…

since they’ve given up on the whole being a labour party thing

Parties change. No reason why the status quo will persist.

So where is the drive leftwards going to come from? Some new party?

No need. Labour drifted right when their voter base wanted it, they’ll drift back left again if we want it. That’s how democracy works. Funny you mention media being in control, as that’s changing faster right now than it ever has. Who knows what changes that will bring even in a few years’ time.

What are the bookies odds? They’re normally right 😉

Its the class war innit. Always is in this country, and the Independence debate seems more and more to me to be about those that have something to lose against those that don’t.

I’m lucky though, as least if I am forced to live in a tiny and underfunded country who can’t afford to run public services properly, I can move to one with decent weather !

molgrips – Member

No need. Labour drifted right when their voter base wanted it, they’ll drift back left again if we want it.

I think you have 2 wrong assumptions there tbh. Labour’s move right wasn’t anything to do with what their voter base wanted- it was about taking over the “middle ground” and winning votes outside their traditional voting bloc. Smart electioneering.

And other than abandoning the party there’s nothing the left wing voters can do to bring them back left- and we’re not likely to do that, because even a Labour party 1 degree to the left of the Tories is still generally better than the Tories.

Labour’s move right wasn’t anything to do with what their voter base wanted- it was about taking over the “middle ground” and winning votes outside their traditional voting bloc

It wasn’t what their grass roots wanted, no, but ok you make a fair point. It was a move to the right to recapture previous voters who’d drifted right themselves.

And other than abandoning the party there’s nothing the left wing voters can do to bring them back left

If proper lefties stop voting at all, and Labour realise why, then they’ll move back left. To be honest there’s probably a huge section of disaffected voters who’d vote for a proper left wing party, even if it’s only out of self interest. Almost everyone resents rich fatcats lining their own pockets (even if they have to imagine them). If that’s not a rich seam of voters for Labour to mine I have no idea what is.

molgrips – Member

It was a move to the right to recapture previous voters who’d drifted right themselves.

I don’t think that’s right- it was pretty clear that Blair was after new voters, people who were naturally right of labour.

molgrips – Member

If proper lefties stop voting at all, and Labour realise why, then they’ll move back left.

The basic problem with this, is that they’re just not likely to do so in numbers, as long as Labour remain fractionally more palatable than the Tories. And remember, the gains on the right are twofold- Labour gains a vote and also takes away a likely tory vote. The losses on the left are singular because they’ll never vote tory.

The idea that voting yes avoids future austerity is pure fantasy. Scotland faces similar debt dynamics but one sensible solution to dealing with it and one crazy one. But then again, AS has been trying to tell people that only rUK has been/will be increasing private sector provision of health services. One more fat porky from wee eck.

The closer we get, the bigger the porkies. Still the polls suggest that it’s working. Oh, when reality sets in…..snake oil anyone?

THM = YAWN.