Viewing 40 posts - 41 through 80 (of 94 total)
  • Reducing Teenage pregnancies…
  • Bushwacked
    Free Member

    Oh, I wasn't bringing it down as its a great country, the story (whether true or not) brought an interesting angle to how we deal with teenage pregs when compared to the traditional chuck condoms approach, which seems to get mentioned so often.

    With two young daughters I sort of take an interest in understanding how to avoid them ending up with with kids too early (not against people getting pregnant if they are having them for the right reasons, whatever they may be)

    crikey
    Free Member

    You want to reduce teen pregnancies?

    Do two things;

    1. Look at the societies where teenage pregnancy is lower than ours and learn the lesson.

    Country birth rate abortion rate Combined rate
    Netherlands 7.7 3.9 11.6
    Spain 7.5 4.9 12.4
    Italy 6.6 6.7 13.3
    Greece 12.2 1.3 13.5
    Belgium 9.9 5.2 15.1
    Germany 13.0 5.3 18.3
    Finland 9.8 9.6 19.4
    France 9.4 13.2 22.6
    Denmark 8.2 15.4 23.6
    Sweden 7.7 17.7 25.4
    Norway 13.6 18.3 31.9
    Czech Republic 20.1 12.4 32.5
    Iceland 21.5 20.6 42.1
    Slovak Republic 30.5 13.1 43.6
    Australia 20.1 23.9 44
    Canada 22.3 22.1 44.4
    United Kingdom 29.6 21.3 50.9
    New Zealand 33.4 22.5 55.9
    Hungary 29.9 30.2 60.1
    United States 55.6 30.2 85.8

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_pregnancy

    2. Make fathers pay for their children, in a serious, life-long commitment way.

    Kids; they're for life, not just for Christmas…

    Bushwacked
    Free Member

    Kids; they're for life, not just for Christmas…

    FACT!

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    epicyclo
    Full Member

    We thought having our children in our teens was great. We had a load of fun with them, took them everywhere (no choice, no money for babysitters). My wife continued with her education and youth meant we were more resilient to the demands of active young children. Our kids reckon they had more fun with us than their mates had with their aged parents.

    The only bad bit was the continuous sniping from smug middle class rear apertures.

    The best bit was being child free when we had started to earn good money in our 30s. We had such a good time that the missus got pregnant again and popped out another 2.

    Now if someone wants to start a thread about the undesirability of middleage parenthood, I'm sure I could make some trenchant comments.

    There's nothing wrong with teen pregnancy per se, but there's an awful lot wrong with poverty and deprivation.

    project
    Free Member

    With so many teenagers appearing to be ****,how come they can father children,any person under 21 who has a kid,shold be taken into a hostel,and trained how to look after the kid,while going out to work as well, no council house,council tax benefit, and no Housing benefit.

    ton
    Full Member

    my son and his girlfriend were both 17 when their daughter was born.
    he works fulltime with me, and all his wage goes on looking after his daughter.
    his girlfriends mother had her 1st daughter at 17,his girlfriends older sister had her 1st child at 18……..neither of them has ever worked.
    do you think my sons girlfriend will ever try to get a job, she is currently waiting for a council house, and my son will keep on paying for his mistake.
    life eh.

    and they are both 18, just.

    BillMC
    Full Member

    Teenage pregnancy is higher in countries with the greatest income inequality. High in UK and US, low in Japan, Scandinavia. Check the data ppt from Richard Wilkinson's book 'The Spirit Level' on 'TheEqualityTrust.org'….interesting stuff.

    skidartist
    Free Member

    Lets cut through all the bullshit and have a think about this shall we?

    Teen pregnancy is symptomatic of poverty, not wholly, you don't need to be a poor teen to get pregnant, but within a population you'll see teen pregnancy within the poorer sectors of (our) society.

    You'll also see child mortality high amongst the poor as was some hideous goons were giggling about here on a thread about road deaths a few days ago.

    If you take all the social problems related to poverty and group them together (say child mortality and pregnancy, family breakdown, prison, murder, alcoholism and addiction, poor diet, poor health….. theres more) and give a comparative score between societies you will see countries with a big gap between the rich and poor have a corresponding high level of social problem –

    like this

    So rich countries like the Japan or the nordic countries can have comparatively low levels or social problems because the gap between rich and poor is quite low – their typical rich earn about 4 times what the typical poor earn. In countries like the UK and the US the typical rich might earn 9 times what the typical poor earn.

    Now our poor in the UK are quite well off in absolute terms, they are poor within our society, but still amongst the richest people on the planet. And better off than the were at the end of the last tory government thats for certain. And although you'd never believe it in our doomlaiden papers many of our social ills are in decline. Not all, but many.

    Now the interesting thing about all this though is that it suggests that a nations social ills, even if they mainly occur within the poorer elements of society, seem to be caused by the richer elements of society.

    So back to the original topic – teen pregnancy. A synonym for 'contraception' is 'protection'. I think a typical middle class teenager – your daughter will be **** terrified of getting pregnant, all their plans all their ambitions, all those things they want to do before they have children are at stake, on top of their family relationships and any social implication. They bloody want protection.

    A pregnant teenager is someone who didn't feel they need to protect themselves, they'll be well aware of contraception and they'll probably use it, but not with anything like the anxious zeal that your kids will. Protect yourself from what? Whats the worst that can happen when the worst is already happening? Has always been happening.

    Apply those concerns to anything else, how is jail a deterrent when you've nothing to loose, why would you make choices about your food, drink, drugs on the basis of safeguarding your future if its a future full of the same shit that you live with day to day.

    Now the thing is when the poor of our society are making these decisions they don't have a calculator in their hand working out that the richest 20% are earning 9 times more than me, so pass me the scagg. So why is it happening? What are the rich doing to make the poor hopeless?

    Poisonous comments from braying leisure cyclists about child road accident victims being a fortunate mechanism of natural selection perhaps?

    There are changes that can be made and they are much simpler than taxation or education because they've got nothing to do with government and everything to do with us.

    You combat the ill effects of poverty by liking people

    crikey
    Free Member

    You combat the ill effects of poverty by liking people

    ..and by trying to treat them as you would like to be treated yourself, not demonising them, not insulting them, and not by depriving them of decent housing, decent education and proper support.

    Teenage pregnancy leads to kids. Help those kids at the right time, in the right way, with the right amount of support and you save yourself and your society the cost of their crimes, their prison sentences, their dependence on healthcare…

    A stitch in time saves nine.

    El-bent
    Free Member

    Are you sure that isn't a silly urban myth spread by people pushing a particular right wing agenda? Studies elsewhere have found no evidence of teenage girls getting pregnant deliberately to get council housing, and you'd think if there was such a striking correlation out there in real life, it would be pretty well publicised, as it'd show all these loony left wingers the error of their ways?

    There is a particular right wing agenda when it comes to this, because its all about attacking anything public service in the view that if money wasn't "wasted" on it, it would mean less tax burden on them. Teenage mothers are only in the firing line as a means to attack the system, after them, they will attack something else.

    Now the interesting thing about all this though is that it suggests that a nations social ills, even if they mainly occur within the poorer elements of society, seem to be caused by the richer elements of society.

    Top notch posting Skidartist. We have a sickening class system in this country, where we are all too ready to attack thy neighbour for being different, whether richer, poorer etc. But if we are all at each others throats…

    BigDummy
    Free Member

    [applauds skidartist]

    skidartist
    Free Member

    Teenage mothers are only in the firing line as a means to attack the system, after them, they will attack something else.

    There are not, and never have been, a lot of teenage mothers, the figure that sticks in my mind is something like 6000 across the UK at any given time. You could double or halve that number and the effect on the tax payer would be what exactly? But whatever their background, choices, motives or actions I can hardly think of anyone more wanting or deserving of utmost care, protection and encouragement. Being and child and a parent. Thats enormous, thats a massive live-shaking event. Every effort and every expense I reckon.

    The poor have no voice. Poverty isn't just skint, its poverty of everything, poverty of influence, poverty of voice, poverty or representation. The rich and right attack the poor because they don't want their money and the don't want their vote, and because is gratifying to pick a fight with someone who can't fight back

    epicyclo
    Full Member

    If you really want to stop unwanted teenage pregnancies, then educate the young guys that they have an absolute responsibility to pay for the support of their children.

    Keep bashing it into their heads all the things they won't be able to do, like affording a nice car, holidays, new mtbs etc.

    Also if they are doing their fair share of care for their sons and daughters (our grandchildren) then they won't have much spare time to enjoy leisure pursuits that don't involve children.

    Demonising young mothers is plain bullying. They don't get pregnant on their own.

    BoardinBob
    Full Member

    To be fair, f*ck having kids at any age. The mind boggles as to why anyone could be arsed with the hassle.

    ton
    Full Member

    epicyclo
    boy oh boy did i try mate…..

    skidartist
    Free Member

    You're all heart bob

    epicyclo
    Full Member

    ton,
    so did my father 🙂

    Which is why I knew what the responsibilities were. He summed it up like this "… only dip your wick in keepers…"

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    If you really want to stop unwanted teenage pregnancies, then educate the young guys that they have an absolute responsibility to pay for the support of their children.

    Go back and read that long post by skidartist, think hard then read it again. I will allow you to miss out on the last line. Then come back and explain why what you have written is shite.

    Kramer
    Free Member

    In my line of work, it tends to be the young girls who don't need abortions who get them, and the ones who would probably benefit from them who won't consider them.

    Agreed about relative poverty, and perceived lack of social mobility being a large factor.

    The sad thing is that you can spot the whole cycle of deprivation repeating itself.

    epicyclo
    Full Member

    anagallis_arvensis – Member
    Go back and read that long post by skidartist, think hard then read it again. I will allow you to miss out on the last line. Then come back and explain why what you have written is shite.

    It isn't shite. If you're not prepared to support your children you're less than a man.

    skidartist
    Free Member

    Who here is still deeply in love with the first and only person they've ever kissed?

    I think there are plenty of teenage fathers out there who are more than aware of what their responsibilities might be, but being duty bound alone is not the secret of a successful family.

    BillMC
    Full Member

    If you check Wilkinson's slide on social mobility, the most unequal countries have the least hope of moving up. In that context, people are more likely to behave in a chaotic and self-destructive fashion plus become obese.

    skidartist
    Free Member

    Bill

    I've got Wilkinson and Picketts book sitting here waiting to be read (might be a long wait I can probably count number of books I've read in the last 12 years one hand, some I didn't finish). Had a quick flick through those powerpoints but don't want any spoilers!

    Slides 11 and 12 are absolute jaw droppers though. Shocking Shocking Shocking!

    The thing is though, it should all be obvious.

    What puzzles me (and if I'd read the book maybe it wouldn't) is that while all these things can corollate with income inequality, the poor in our country are not poor in absolute terms. Why should the presence of much richer people turn other people's modest lives into intolerable ones. What is it that rich people do, or seem to do? I think the money is just an easy measure, but whats happening socially, culturally, politically to cause all this? It seems too obvious to say wealth should simply be distributed more evenly, but I don't know what actions you could really take to make that happen (short of communism which tends to result in lots of corpses).

    Issues of social mobility aside, it will always be the lot of some people to be poor, for some of the time or all of the time. What can be done to make a humble life a noble life?

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    It isn't shite. If you're not prepared to support your children you're less than a man.

    It is now go and read what skidartist wrote and try and engage a brain cell or two.

    JacksonPollock
    Free Member

    Spot on analysis skidartist.

    Protect yourself from what? Whats the worst that can happen when the worst is already happening? Has always been happening.

    So true!

    Have a look at the work of Emile Durkheim and his concept of Anomie (Lawlessness). Apply these theories to modern society and many parallels can be drawn.

    legend76
    Free Member

    who was it said"the rich get richer and the poor get pregnant"?

    Philby
    Full Member

    Some findings from some research into teenage pregnancy concluded:

    "Teen conceptions that follow through to maternity most often involve an older partner, who can potentially exert much negative control over the relationship
    Most teen conceptions involve girls from deprived areas, who have done poorly at school and who have families with unhealthy relationships. Most girls have also had something to do with the care system
    Benefits and housing are NOT motivators for teen pregnancy. They may be ‘pull’ factors but they are not ‘push’ factors."

    BillMC
    Full Member

    Skidartist, one of the(many) points about Wilkinson's data plus the UN table of childhood wellbeing is that so much more can be achieved even within the context of capitalism. A slightly different direction but check out Anna Minton's 'Ground Control' and Tim Kasser's 'High Price of Materialism'. All this stuff links up and shows how we're currently going in the very wrong neoliberal direction.

    skidartist
    Free Member

    What? Two other books? I'll be dead before I finish them 🙂

    But if they have some pictures then I'm sold!

    BillMC
    Full Member

    Search out the very good review article on Minton's book:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/jul/05/ground-control-anna-minton-review

    coffeeking
    Free Member

    What puzzles me (and if I'd read the book maybe it wouldn't) is that while all these things can corollate with income inequality, the poor in our country are not poor in absolute terms. Why should the presence of much richer people turn other people's modest lives into intolerable ones. What is it that rich people do, or seem to do?

    Very good question. It would seem that the poverty is not the problem, nor is lack of education (certainly I was brought up with significantly lower "sex ed" than is currently provided, yet our years had relatively low teen pregnancy?), it would seem perception of *relative* poverty may be a problem? Having said that, while the rich/poor gap (I'm not sure how it's calculated exactly) may be 9x in the UK, the vast majority of the "rich" are never seen by the remaining sections, even the middle class rarely mix with the "rich", so one could assume that the "poor" might really only get to meet/see/interact with the middle class, where the differential is probably not 9x?

    And is the attitude of disgust towards the poorer side of the population actually deserved, or is it vastly over-done by the media? I mean the cause of the stories of dodgy areas, knife crime, crime/gang -ridden areas etc ARE justified initially, but then do they get out of proportion? While I live 5 miles from the worst areas of Glasgow I rarely see it, but I have had problems such as mindless vandalism and criminal damage even in one of the best areas.

    mastiles_fanylion
    Free Member

    To be fair, f*ck having kids at any age. The mind boggles as to why anyone could be arsed with the hassle.

    Up till I was about 35 I felt the same, but something clicked inside and I suddenly wanted them. At 42 I have 20wk old twins and they are wonderful, they are my life and I don't see the fact I haven't ridden my bike or been to the pub for 5 months 'hassle' in the slightest. Especially as Evie properly laughed for the first time last night. Seriously – I almost cried.

    Bushwacked
    Free Member

    Coffeeking – I wonder if it is to do with the media obsession with money and celebrity – seems there are a lot of media publications which focus on having the right dress / car / jewellery / bathroom / trainers / bike etc etc etc – maybe this is where the perception of relative poverty comes from – more a wanting more than they can get and not being happy with what they have.

    BillMC
    Full Member

    Coffeeking, rape and robbery with violence stories occupy about 46% of crime stories in newspapers but they are only 3% of all recorded crime. The crime rate is actually falling but people's perceptions are encouraged to be based on fear of everworsening crime. This is a neat way of justifying more cctv, more police powers, armed police etc etc. All very important things when the system is in crisis.

    skidartist
    Free Member

    The thing is we talk about the poorer sector of society like they are a citizens of a foreign country. They're just ordinary folk. The folk in Possil and Sighthill are just ordinary folk. Talk to them, they're nice. They've had some tough breaks perhaps but they've got life skills and …. get this…. they've got a community that supports them too.

    I think the media broadly suffers from not being able to understand and represent the ordinary. The media is made up of the rich and trendy and even if they wanted to, by and large they wouldn't know how to find, meet, befriend, talk to, and empathise with someone ordinary. And I mean this, they'll tell you outright, they don't know how to do it. If you make television then 'access' is the key to everything, its gold dust. You can have a great idea, but if you can't access the people to point the camera at then forget it. The media just doesn't know how to access ordinary people. And it hasn't been able to do so for such a long time that ordinary life and ordinary perspectives and ordinary experiences are so foreign to television audiences that even if they get access tv doesn't know how to serve that experience to the viewing public, even to ordinary people. Its not part of the media language.

    And then there's charities…….. thats a kettle of fish for another day

    skidartist
    Free Member

    Double post!

    juan
    Free Member

    Join big dummy

    *Applause skidartist*

    coffeeking
    Free Member

    The thing is we talk about the poorer sector of society like they are a citizens of a foreign country. They're just ordinary folk. The folk in Possil and Sighthill are just ordinary folk. Talk to them, they're nice.

    The problem is, from my experience, they often ACT like they're their own country. Not always, of course, and take everyone as you find them, but from past experience they seem almost more likely to pre-judge a "middle class" person as the reverse. Maybe it's an automatic response as some sort of self-preservation. On a one-to-one basis I'd always treat people the same regardless, but I don't think it's unfair to assume stereotypes grow from trends, or is it? Of course there are often poor families that are just caught up in all of that nonesense, and that's why you have to take everyoen as you find them, but is it then wrong to make a link between, on average, poverty and crime?

    Though you say "talk to them, they're nice" – I've only twice been subject to attempted assault while commuting home on the bike, once was in croxteth in Liverpool (very dodgy area) and once was near Sighthill. IF you were to assume theyre just normal nice folk, why are such occurances more likely in those areas? Why are they fairly regularly at each others throats and lobbing stuff across roads. Why do they corner cars that drive into their road and not let you out for amusements sake? The middle class wouldn't do that if a rich person turned up in a Rolls, they'd twitch a curtain and maybe admire, then go back to fixing their MTB.

    I think it's 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other in a lot of cases, but it's just as hard for the middle class to let their guard down and talk to the local poorer quarters as it woudl be for the poorer people to walk into an up-market pub and have a chat to the locals.

    trusz
    Free Member

    Bum sex

    skidartist
    Free Member

    I'll pass thanks.

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