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  • Recommendations needed! (trail running shoes)
  • MrCrushrider
    Free Member

    im after some very stable/grippy and shock absorbent trail running shoes for dry and hardpack conditions. im a fairly heavy guy and keep getting a bad back while running – any recommendations for agood pair of shoes?

    cheers all!

    phinbob
    Full Member

    I really like Inov8 Rocklite 315's for longer distance stuff and training (and X-talons for muddy shorter races).

    joemarshall
    Free Member

    Is a bad back really likely to be shoe related? I'd guess it is far more likely to be technique.

    If you happen to be near one of these workshops
    http://www.theartofrunning.com/Master_The_Art_of_Running/Workshops.html
    I went on one once, and found it very useful for running technique. There is a book, which is okay too, but it is much easier to understand from the workshop he does.

    Joe

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    MrCrushrider
    Free Member

    i think its a contributing factor to be honest, not the only cause. it happens mainly when ive been running and shock stopper insoles have helped a bit but not completely.

    just thought a good shoe might help!?

    Keva
    Free Member

    http://www.sweatshop.co.uk/storefinder.cfm

    I've always found Sweatshop a really good place to get fitted with running trainers. Everyone has different shape feet, everyone has a unique style of running, what fits for one could be the worst for someone else. Sweatshops (most I believe?) have treadmills with a video camera so they can watch how you plant your feet and decide which type of trainer will best suit your style. Staff are always good too and know their stuff.

    Kev

    surfer
    Free Member

    Not having a pop at you Joe but its pathetic that people feel the need to be instructed in something that comes naturally to young children and some of the poorest nations in the world are its greatest exponents.
    I despair at anyone that needs teaching how to put one foot in front of the other!
    Instruction in training methods/coaching yes but the basic concept?

    hugorune
    Full Member

    I've got a pair of inov8's that are really good for steep and muddy but for dry and hard conditions I've got a pair of Saloman XA pros that are rather good. i'm 6'3" and 100kgs btw.

    roper
    Free Member

    To be honest on hard rocky surfaces it's better to have thinner souls on your shoes and not thicker or more padded. You are far more likely to damage a knee or ankle if you can't feel what you are running on. Any movement from the rocks underfoot can jolt you if you can't feel the movement, if that makes sence. You need to feel the rocks moving in order to re-stabalise yourself and readjust any balance. Also a lower centre of gravity helps. Thicker shoes are higher and dampen what you feel and so make you more open to twists, jolts and stubles.
    It would be better if you can look at how you are running. How you stand and how you are moving on the trail. You can run heavy-footed or bouncy in any shoes, it's more on how you run.

    If it's lower back pain then get a gentle routine of stretching your arches, Achilles, backs of lower and upper legs, hips up to your head can help too.

    Af far as shoes go, I have always been comfortable with Montrail Continental Divides. They are good on any hardpack surface and are very, very comfy and I have never had any issues with them straight out of the box.
    I do tend to spend a lot of time in Salamon shoes too, they are lower to the ground and have thinner souls.

    boblo
    Free Member

    Agreed, XA's for dry/rock/tracks, Inov 8 Flyroc 310's+Sealskins for bog/mud/crap here.

    Jamie
    Free Member

    Inov-8 F-Lite 230s….excellent on everything apart from muddy muddy mud. For that I use Roclites.

    roper
    Free Member

    Not having a pop at you Joe but its pathetic that people feel the need to be instructed in something that comes naturally to young children and some of the poorest nations in the world are its greatest exponents.
    I despair at anyone that needs teaching how to put one foot in front of the other!
    Instruction in training methods/coaching yes but the basic concept?

    It is odd surfer but I think some people need it. You see how people bob along in a park in ill fitting shoes they bought because they saw someone with the same gear in a magazine. How many times do you hear people say they used to run but can't as they have bad knees or hips, when in reality they could be running now if they had the right gear and re-learn how to do it. It's better that someone go to a class rather than not run at all.

    surfer
    Free Member

    Roper, shoe fitting yes, of course some advice here is useful (but even that is taken to extremes in the pursuit of profit) but the act of running should be natural to the individual, not taught by a "consultant"
    The more you run the more adept and fluent you become. Bodies naturally adapt as they are stressed, there is no right or wrong way to run and its no coincidence that the best runners look very graceful. Form and function are part of the adaption process and with increased training the body becomes more efficient.
    Track runners on the whole are more graceful than long distance runners (although most high performing athletes look efficient and graceful) It doesnt come about through concentrating on style it comes about largely as a by product of intensive training.

    PenrodPooch
    Free Member

    Inov8 Flyroc are really good and I use them for trail running. They have very little support compared to traditional trainers though so you will need to ease yourself in

    bristolbiker
    Free Member

    Another vote for the XA's….

    joemarshall
    Free Member

    Not having a pop at you Joe but its pathetic that people feel the need to be instructed in something that comes naturally to young children and some of the poorest nations in the world are its greatest exponents. I despair at anyone that needs teaching how to put one foot in front of the other!

    Supposedly a lot of this has to do with shoes, and the way people in western nations wear heavily cushioned shoes for all their running. Whereas in very poor and hot countries, people tend to run more naturally, either barefoot, or with something much closer to a barefoot running style. Children often run barefoot too. In those countries, people can run hundreds of miles without major injuries. In the western world, we spend a fortune on expensive cushioned shoes, and many people seem to have injuries every fifty miles or so, which it is argued are actually caused by the way that shoes encourage heel strikes / running with your feet landing in front, and also not listening to your body or reading the terrain through your feet.

    Have you had running injuries much? Know anyone who has? If so, you probably don't know how to run. Sometimes that may be overtraining, but all too often, it is just because people run in weird unnatural ways, and don't listen to their bodies.

    The only problem with learning how to run in a way that is efficient and lets you run without injuries, is that you get annoyingly evangelistic about learning to run.

    teaching how to put one foot in front of the other

    Ah yeah, but if you'd done the workshop, you'd know that it is more efficient not to think of feet going 'in front of each other', in efficient running, each foot lands directly below the body. If your foot lands in front of you, that slows you down. Even that simple fact makes it feel a load easier to run.

    I've found since I did the course, I am a whole lot faster, with no extra effort. I don't run very often (probably once a month maximum), but I've entered some races, and never come outside the top third, despite hardly any training.

    Watching people nowadays, I'd say 90% of people you see running suck at running and could make themselves more efficient through improving technique. I suck at running, although slightly less maybe, but at least I am aware of it. Even loads of relatively okay club runners run in weird ways that just cannot be efficient.

    If you look at really good runners, they don't run like normal people – they almost all land their feet directly under them, and spend a lot of time working on technique to get faster. Technique is free speed, and reduces injuries, you'd be an idiot not to think about it.

    Particularly true offroad too – look at good fell runners – almost all wearing silly unpadded shoes, which it turns out make much more sense than big padded shoes for running over hard off road terrain.

    Joe

    surfer
    Free Member

    Anyway back on message

    I have Inov8 shoes and they are excellect but given the terrain you describe and the fact thay you are heavy I would suggest something like Nike Pegasus which is well cushioned and has a reasonabely grippy outersole.

    joemarshall
    Free Member

    Not having a pop at you Joe but its pathetic that people feel the need to be instructed in something that comes naturally to young children and some of the poorest nations in the world are its greatest exponents.
    I despair at anyone that needs teaching how to put one foot in front of the other!
    Instruction in training methods/coaching yes but the basic concept?

    I don't know why people bother learning to swim strokes – I mean babies (and even animals) can naturally swim doggy paddle, why don't we just stick with that, rather than learning to swim efficient freestyle or breastroke? I despair at anyone who needs teaching to move forward in water.

    joemarshall
    Free Member

    no right or wrong way to run and its no coincidence that the best runners look very graceful. Form and function are part of the adaption process and with increased training the body becomes more efficient.

    There is no one right way to run, but there are clearly tons of wrong ways to run, and many people will do them repeatedly for thousands of miles, drilling the bad habits into their muscle memory. Increased training doesn't do it all on it's own, as the many club runners with recurring injuries should surely make it obvious. If you follow this kind of training scheme, the people who come out of it may be efficient, natural runners, but that is only because you've weeded everyone else out through injuries.

    On the shoe thing, I have some Saucony ones. They are quite light and not very padded, at least at the important front bit where my feet hit the ground most.

    Joe

    IanMunro
    Free Member

    Roper, shoe fitting yes, of course some advice here is useful (but even that is taken to extremes in the pursuit of profit) but the act of running should be natural to the individual, not taught by a "consultant"

    The act of shitting also comes pretty naturally. Luckily for me I had a consultant when I was younger who taught me about toilets, toilet paper and washing hands. Made a world of difference to my technique 🙂

    surfer
    Free Member

    Its not about shoes. Whilst some runners in Kenya and Ethiopia do run barefoot lots of them also run in shoes. Their footwear or lack of it has little to do with their performance. I have raced in shoes and barefoot and in the UK its more practical for protection to wear shoes.
    What you are evangelising about is counter productive it becomes a crutch for those unwilling to master something that in essence is very simple.

    Watching people nowadays, I'd say 90% of people you see running suck at running and could make themselves more efficient through improving technique

    Who are you to say their technique is poor, maybe you have been convinced this is so by somebody with a financial interest in making this appear to be the case.
    I have raced against highly competitive athletes who had "unique" styles. However they are fast and are running injury free. If the purpose for you is to look good (and it sounds that way to me) then you have misguided priorities. How can you say that "they suck at running"? Are you faster than them? I suspect you dont know because you dont compete much. I suspect what you mean is they dont conform to some idealistic style over function criteria that you only recognise once you have been on the course?
    Emil Zatopek had a terrible style which won him the 5000m, 10000m, marathon treble at the 52 olympics. I would pay money to watch him run rather than be told how to run by a poncy consultant who has invented a way of extracting cash from people with too much of it!

    surfer
    Free Member

    Injuries are very easy to avoid, dont run.

    Run to much and you will break down.

    A good coach, the ability to listen to your body and gradual adaptive training will mean you will reach a good level of performance.

    as the many club runners with recurring injuries should surely make it obvious. If you follow this kind of training scheme, the people who come out of it may be efficient, natural runners, but that is only because you've weeded everyone else out through injuries.

    I run for a club, can you give me stats for your assertion. Yes runners develop injuries in their pursuit of better performance. Its a fine line between training optimally and breaking down. For somebody who trains once a month then you will have no experience of this.

    The North Face Hedgehogs.
    I'm about 100kg and have got both the standard and mid height version.
    I use them for trail running and as day to day trainers.
    Water proof, too.

    nickc
    Full Member

    This time of year, I wouldn't necessarily choose anything other than just regular trainers for off road running, it's only in sloppy conditions you need proper "off road" trainers.

    regarding heavily cushioned shoes…Some 75% of people are natural heel strikers, that's how they try to run barefoot as well, padded shoes allow those people to run with fewer long term problems, although it stands to reason more heel strikers still get injured. Some 24% of the population run a mid sole strike, and a teeny tiny 1% are natural toe or forefoot runners (which can lead to its own set of injury worries and woes).

    surfer
    Free Member

    I don't know why people bother learning to swim strokes – I mean babies (and even animals) can naturally swim doggy paddle, why don't we just stick with that, rather than learning to swim efficient freestyle or breastroke? I despair at anyone who needs teaching to move forward in water.

    But the act of attempting to move faster in the water leads to better technique. Teaching a baby breastroke is probably not going to happen and swimming is a more "technical" movement. A small child runs in almost exactly the same way as an adult their is little learning involved the act of running doesnt have to be "learned" as much as you adopt the language that has been drilled into you on the course.

    IanMunro
    Free Member

    and a teeny tiny 1% are natural toe or forefoot runners (which can lead to its own set of injury worries and woes).

    Out if interest where did you get this figures from? Esp the 75% of people are 'natural' heel strikers? I don't doubt for a moment that 75% of habitual cushioned shoe wearers attempt to heel strike when they first run without that cushioning, but that's not quite the same thing.
    If we go to countries where cushioned built up heels are not the norm will we find 75% heel strikers. Prior to the 1970's were 75% of the population habitual heel strikers?

    /Edit
    I think part of the problem is that the turn heel striker unfortunately encompasses a range of forms from the heel gently brushing the ground before the bulk of the force goes through the ball, to people who drive their heels into the ground with their toes still pointing 45 degrees up in the air.

    joemarshall
    Free Member

    But the act of attempting to move faster in the water leads to better technique.

    The act of attempting to move faster in the water, whilst following an efficent training plan which takes into account the dynamics of water flow and resistance has been shown to improve technique.

    The act of attempting to move faster in the water without taking into account the dynamics of water flow and resistance, leads to people hitting a wall, and repeatedly practicing the same, inefficient stroke.

    Which is why top level swimmers without exception employ people to watch and improve their stroke efficiency.

    Interestingly, it was the massive improvement in my swimming by following some efficiency based training, rather than just striving to go faster through the water as you suggest, that got me into the running thing, where I also noticed a massive improvement in my running from training based on efficiency, rather than just repeatedly doing something that I'd done a million times before, and denying that bad habits can exist, or that it could be any more complicated than putting one foot after the other.

    A small child runs in almost exactly the same way as an adult their is little learning involved

    No they don't. A kid running barefoot runs quite differently to most adults in running shoes. Surely that much is obvious to any bugger who has seen a kid and an adult run?

    Also, about barefoot running / forefoot running etc. you should read this recent study, by a bunch of good people, reported in a very good peer reviewed journal, showing how it massively reduces the impact on feet.
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v463/n7280/abs/nature08723.html

    Joe

    nickc
    Full Member

    Runners World. So it's probably shit, but the whole "barefoot/running technique/chi/Nike are killing kittens with fat soled running shoes" thing pisses me off so much, it's a handy one to keep all the running fascists at bay for a few minutes whilst they figure out a way of arguing it.

    MSP
    Full Member

    nickc – Member
    SingleTrackWorld. So it's probably shit, but the whole "gears/singlespeed/technique/chi/Specialized are killing kittens with full suspension" thing pisses me off so much, it's a handy one to keep all the riding fascists at bay for a few minutes whilst they figure out a way of arguing it.

    fixed that for you

    roper
    Free Member

    This time of year, I wouldn't necessarily choose anything other than just regular trainers for off road running, it's only in sloppy conditions you need proper "off road" trainers.

    What about dry "proper "off road" trainers" that people use in hotter counties? Trail shoes aren't just for wet and muddy conditions, even the brands based in the UK make some for hard dry trails.

    nobtwidler
    Free Member

    New Balance 783s for me light and grippy and not too expensive but they are a bit small!

    nickc
    Full Member

    The trails are hard packed at the minute, the only thing about them different from roads and pavements is that they are uneven, so you need to concentrate at bit harder on where you put your feet. Shoes aren't going to do that for you.

    even the brands based in the UK make some for hard dry trails.

    No shit, Sherlock…

    nobtwidler
    Free Member

    There are still wet and muddy trails out there!

    surfer
    Free Member

    whilst following an efficent training plan which takes into account the dynamics of water flow and resistance has been shown to improve technique.

    But are you talking now about "training" that is a different thing and you are actually now reinforcing my earlier point that repetition/practice leads to optimal technique but simply technique for its own sake is useless. it is only of benefit it it offers improved performance.
    As I said coaching/training etc is not what your "guru" is offering. He seems to have a new USP and his books arent aimed at improving performance (I suspect the market is full of too many good ones from people who are actually making a contribution for him to make any money!)

    A kid running barefoot runs quite differently to most adults in running shoes

    Interesting spin on what I said. Both run in a very similar fashion (if we assume both are barefoot/shoed) there is almost no difference in technique, although technique and style will vary from individual to individual given the mryiad of different physical attributes. In basic terms however the action is very similar. Unlike Breastroke and front crawl which are learned techniques for moving through what for most people is a less natural medium.

    joemarshall
    Free Member

    simply technique for its own sake is useless. it is only of benefit it it offers improved performance.

    Like reduced injuries, and higher speed you mean?

    As I said coaching/training etc is not what your "guru" is offering. He seems to have a new USP and his books arent aimed at improving performance (I suspect the market is full of too many good ones from people who are actually making a contribution for him to make any money!)

    It's hardly a 'new USP' – call it efficiency, call it performance, essentially, all the people looking at running technique (pose, alexander technique, barefoot running, chi running etc.) are offering ways to get further for the same amount of effort, and/or reduce the injuries you get whilst doing so. Alexander technique is hardly new or unknown for that matter, it's a very common method of looking at repetitive things that people do with their bodies, and breaking learnt patterns of movement that may be inefficient. If it works so well in lots of other areas (there is loads of evidence for it's efficiency in work with musicians that I know about, also in swimming), there is no reason that running should be the odd one out, the only physical activity that we can perfect purely by repeating it, without considering our technique at all.

    Joe

    surfer
    Free Member

    Like reduced injuries, and higher speed you mean?

    The latter is increased performance 🙄 Can you quantify the reduction in injuries? do you have any evidence? I suspect it is impossible to scientifically prove. Can you identify any scientific studies that show it increases performance? if not it is usefull as the method I use of banging my town halls in the doorframe! Both have as much validity given that neither have evidence to back up the claims. At least my method doesnt require a seminar or (quel suprise) to purchase a book! although it may necessitate a trip to A&E.

    are offering ways to get further for the same amount of effort, and/or reduce the injuries you get whilst doing so

    Again, is there eveidence for this or is it just your assertion?

    The "pose" concept has been around for years like many other "snake oil" methods of doing something that can be "learned" naturally and usually there is payment involved!.
    Can you identify a top distance athlete that uses it? Or is it the case that they all use the established method of application, hard work and sacrifice.

    joemarshall
    Free Member

    Also, I don't understand why runners are so defensive about any attempt to improve technique, and how it could never work? People like you haven't done this workshop, but are clearly convinced that there is no way that technique work for runners could possibly work.

    On the other hand, I've done this workshop, the training exercises I learnt on the workshop made it easy to massively improve my running in a relatively short time, both in terms of how much I injure myself or hurt after a run (not any more), and how far and fast I can run (significantly further and faster), without massively increasing my training time or basic fitness level.

    My wife did the same workshop. Before she did it, every time she went to the running shop, they watched her run, and sold her the 'anti-roll' shoes to correct what was supposedly an inbuilt poor gait. Nowadays, the same shop sells her 'neutral' shoes without corrective bits.

    Joe

    surfer
    Free Member

    The whole corrective shoes business is a different debate.

    with regard to

    On the other hand, I've done this workshop, the training exercises I learnt on the workshop made it easy to massively improve my running in a relatively short time, both in terms of how much I injure myself or hurt after a run (not any more), and how far and fast I can run (significantly further and faster), without massively increasing my training time or basic fitness level.

    You have said you train once a month and finish in the top 1/3rd of races. What times (approximately) have you run? My point being if you run 60 mins for 10k then improving by 10% is not really a big deal. If you have run 32 mins and you then ran 31. I would be very impressed if anybody can run those time without a significant commitment and at least an increase in training frequency of around 25!

    roper
    Free Member

    even the brands based in the UK make some for hard dry trails.
    No shit, Sherlock…

    nickc, why not reply to the point I made rather than take a small part of out of context to try and back up your weekend warrior knowledge you read on runners world? It hardly confirms what you say and just makes you look ignorant.

    nickc
    Full Member

    Proper off road running shoes have 'by definition' more robust uppers, toe bumpers, less cushioning, and grippier treads. We don't really live in "hotter countries', so the point seems to be a non starter. With the start to the year we've had (now very dry trails) and for a casual runner, these things are not really desperately important, and a regular set of running shoes will be more than sufficient for ones needs. If you enjoy off road running, and would like to continue on through the winter, then consider a more robust set of trainers.

    It is not surprising is it (no shit Sherlock) that manufactures of off road training shoes would offer amongst their range one 'specifically' for dry conditions…Whether you'd actually need such a trainer is debatable

    Lord knows I'd hate to appear ignorant in front of a font of knowledge such as yourself, Roper, I prostrate myself at your feet in most humble apologies…..

    roper
    Free Member

    I think we must have crossed wires. When the OP said
    "im after some very stable/grippy and shock absorbent trail running shoes for dry and hardpack conditions"
    I read that as he wanted trail shoe recommendations for dry and hardpack conditions. You seem to have read something else.

    It is not surprising is it (no shit Sherlock) that manufactures of off road training shoes would offer amongst their range one 'specifically' for dry conditions…Whether you'd actually need such a trainer is debatable

    Actually it's the other way round. Most make shoes which work in dry or wet conditions but will make the more specialized shoe for wet or colder conditions.

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