I’ve currently got an Elite Volare (?) but on a compact chainset and 25-12 cassette, even on the highest resistance setting its not that hard. (well unless you try a high cadence).

I’d like something with a bit more resistance so that I can do low(er) cadence stuff as well as higher cadence.

Any recommendations?

A Tacx Fortius will do a 1:4 climb allegedly. Not cheap, but probably get them on eBay, and they lots of more interesting things than a ‘normal’ turbo.

I’ve got a normal Imagic without the motor brake, and I can’t overcome the resistance on that on the hardest setting.

I have the same issue with my Elite trainer. Wonder if there is any internal adjustment that could be done to make it tougher? Or fit new chain ring?

put your brakes on?

IME they all feel low due to the low inertia (a <2kg flywheel will never feel like a 80-100kg rider+bike), but when you actualy try and keep up a constant power they’re harder than you think, my Minoura Hypermag will suck up 200 watts just ticking over in 50-27 at about 80rpm. But untill I measured that it felt low as what I was doing in a 20minute interval was barreling off at 400W, then dropping to nearly 100W by the end on the same ‘percieved exertion’.

Low cadence, high power, neuromuscular or sprint training has the most short term effect, any gains in top end power resulting from it are lost in a few weeks, whereas a ‘base’ built up over the winter will last all summer with no additional specific training. So doing that kind of workout on a turbo now is counterproductive, it just leaves you tired and contributes little to your base (i.e. come the summer, it’ll have had about as much an effect as doing nothing, whereas another weeks base training will be another weeks fitness gains).

Do you have trainerroad, veloreality or similar to actualy see what kind of output you’re getting? You’d then at least be in a position to see which trainers offered more resistance (ignore the simulated gradient figures, they’re dependant on bodyweight, stick a todler on one and it would probably simulate a vertical cliff).

Tacx Satori will do what you want.

Low cadence, high power, neuromuscular or sprint training has the most short term effect, any gains in top end power resulting from it are lost in a few weeks, whereas a ‘base’ built up over the winter will last all summer with no additional specific training.

Interesting that, especially as you see a lot of people hit the gym as part of winter training. I’d have thought low cadence/high power would have a similar effect.

Anyway, got a one of the minoura mag twins here (VR750 I think.) At the highest setting there is a massive amount of resistance and I’d be surprised if it wasn’t sufficient for a compact. Any idea what sort of resistance you want for a given wheel speed?

Plenty of resistance from my kinetic road machine, I don’t know if it is a characteristic of fluid trainers in general but I am struggling to understand how other types lack that resistance, the power curve must be really poor on them.

Mmmm agreed, even with the ‘0% incline’ resistance on mine I can hit 1000w, they must be really low resistance.

someone was selling a fortius in the classifieds for 250 quid. I can confirm that VR training makes the turbo experiance bearable.

I have an Iflow, resistance is up to about 5% gradient, but I get round that by just using a much bigger gear.

Fortius does around 8% if I recall, the genius is the one you need for 20% climbs

I admit I’m going off when they first released the Fortius and were claiming 1:4, could be they’ve changed it, or they lied. As I said though, I’d be stunned if anyone bar Chris Hoy found any of the Tacx VR trainers ‘soft’ in that respect.

Interesting that, especially as you see a lot of people hit the gym as part of winter training. I’d have thought low cadence/high power would have a similar effect.

It does, but IMO for most people* ‘keeping fit’ is more achievable than ‘training’, so the turbo trainer is just a way of minimising losses, and anything to break up the routine over the winter and keep active is better than nothing. So a month spent in the gym is better than getting fed up of the turbo mid January and doing nothing till March.

I think the idea behind low cadence (~60-70rpm) work is it builds up the tendons/liggaments before you start on the higher power intervals to avoid injury, but is mainly for people who haven’t trained in a while/ever. It’ll build up muscle too, but no more than mashing out 800W at 100rpm which most turbos should just about do.

IMO turbo’s are quire specific, they don’t do long base rides very well as you get bored/sore sat in one position, and they won’t do high power stuff (<30s intervals) as well as being on the road as theres not the stability/resistance). What they do well is the inbetweeny stuff like 20, 10, 5, 1 miunte intervals which are harder to measure on the road (anyone can go batshit mental for 30seconds, or do a leisurly 60miles).

*myself included, I’m no racing wippet, I just like reading books and geeking out.

The Volare is very much Elite’s entry level unit and has quite a narrow power curve, I have a Turbomuin and although it’ll happily sit there and let you spin away the resistance ramps up massively if you give it the beans.

As a rule, the posher the trainer, the wider the power curve, look for ones with big flywheels as this helps to keep things smooth at high resistance.

Anyone tried the Bkool trainer yet?

Seems like a good idea, kinda like a normal trainer with a trainerroad type PC interface and ‘virtual power’ built in, but also an ergometer (sp?) mode so you can’t wuss out mid sufferfest interval, or allows you to just concentrate on cadence rather than clicking up/down the gears trying to find the sweetspot that matches what the power/cadence sufferfest is asking).

Taxc Flow 2200 with TTS here. TTS is programmable so you can create your own level of pain, e.g 30 mins of intervals including a 15 min warm up, 10 mins of Tabata style bonkersness, then 5 mins of warm down.

Seems like a good idea, kinda like a normal trainer with a trainerroad type PC interface and ‘virtual power’ built in, but also an ergometer (sp?) mode so you can’t wuss out mid sufferfest interval, or allows you to just concentrate on cadence rather than clicking up/down the gears trying to find the sweetspot that matches what the power/cadence sufferfest is asking).

Not familiar with the Bkool, but is it sommat that automatically adjusts the resistance? If so then I really don’t like that on the Imagic, trouble is that if for whatever reason you’re not hitting the numbers a) you don’t know, because it blindly says you’re doing 300w, whether it’s maxed out the resistance and you’re actually struggling to do 100w or you’re utterly smashing it and could be doing 400w, and b) if you start to drop off midway through an effort it ups the resistance, so you have to fight to get back on top of it, which is even harder, so it ups the resistance and so on, I often found myself turning a slow candence and really mashing the pedals.

Don’t even plug my Imagic in now, just use it as a completely stationary trainer, using my PowerTap and ANT+ with TrainerRoad.

I think that’s pretty much how it works.

Most turbo’s work like a gradient, the faster you try and ride up it the harder it gets. Obviously a true gradient one would need an input for bodyweight and a completely linear resistance curve.

The clever ones which adjust the resistance would, as you said, force you into a hole, as your pace drops, they increace the resistance. I suppose some clever programing could make it take the other variable though, let the machine controll the resistance to maintain cadence, and you just have to push the pedals harder/softer to meet the power output.

Apparently the bit of code that allows ANT+ to talk back to the trainer and alter resistance is coming soon, so there might be a flood of cheep computer controlled trainers in the next couple of years. Bkool are just the first to the market using the development code.

Why can,t you just change up to a harder gear.
🙄

Why can,t you just change up to a harder gear.

Because even in 52-11 most turbo’s won’t offer enough resistance at 60rpm. Certainly not comparable ammonts to trying to ride up hill a few gears high, which is the workout the OP is trying to simulate.

My iflow is the weakest of the tacx trainers, and I think i get a fairly realistic workout if I stay in the big cog and crank the resistance up to full. Certainly I’m not spinning away merrily when on the smallest cog at the back.

Because even in 52-11 most turbo’s won’t offer enough resistance at 60rpm. Certainly not comparable ammonts to trying to ride up hill a few gears high, which is the workout the OP is trying to simulate.

The Minoura TwinMag on highest setting with a 55-12 at 60rpm is around 700 watts. Should be plenty at 52-11.

So the question is does ‘base’ mean lots of slow steady miles out in the wet and cold?

I’ve been doing a few of the Sufferfest sessions which are normally about an hour long. Find that a good warm up and cool down plus decent recovery food/drink seems to minimise sore/tired legs the day after.

Don’t have any issues with tacx sattori and resistance. I’m more concerned about putting too much force through the frame as you can see it twist when you put the power down (yes the axle is tightened up)

Not sure I agree with just doing base miles in z2, most training plans I’ve seen (and the professional coach I had a couple of seasons ago) advocated *mostly* base miles in the winter season but with regular interval and skills sessions.

Currently I’m doing 2 turbo / interval sessions a week and one long ride (100miler) at the weekend. Seems to work for me, but then again I’m not an elite rider. I would like to do more but dont have the time

I find long base sessions are doable on the turbo but not ideal. I need to have a decent long movie to watch and drink / phone / ipad close to the bike to keep me occupied. LOTR worked pretty well…

So the question is does ‘base’ mean lots of slow steady miles out in the wet and cold?

Not nececeraly, read the time crunched cyclist.

Although I still stand by my earlier statement, the point at which being structured about training becomes better than just riding more or doing something different becomes advantageous is probably a way off unless you’re already at 15-20 ‘base’ hours a week and too tired to do any more.

If you do a sufferfest session, and you’re not too tired the next time you can do some ‘training’ then it’s good, it’s better than an hour spent at low intensity. But if you have the time to do 3-4 hour rides but find you can’t do them as you’re too tired from the sufferfest, then it’s bad.

I could quite happily ride the same way I do in summer all year, if it wasn’t for the weather. If I was in Spain or Oz there’d be no need to alter my habbits. But as it is, Winter is more about minimising losses than marginal gains.

So the question is does ‘base’ mean lots of slow steady miles out in the wet and cold?

how many hours a week you got to train?

I’m a big fan of 20MP training

http://www.biketechreview.com/performance/supply/47-base-a-new-definition

I have a cycleops fluid and find the resistance is more than enough.

For what it’s worth a CycleOps fluid 2 is around 250W at 60rpm on a 50×12, enough for a wee boy like myself but maybe not for the big power men.

I have a fluid 1 and a 52×11 gear. It is thigh burningly hard!

Try letting your tyre down. About 5psi should do it.

Anyone tried the Bkool trainer yet?

Seems like a good idea, kinda like a normal trainer with a trainerroad type PC interface and ‘virtual power’ built in, but also an ergometer (sp?) mode so you can’t wuss out mid sufferfest interval, or allows you to just concentrate on cadence rather than clicking up/down the gears trying to find the sweetspot that matches what the power/cadence sufferfest is asking).

I have – really like it.
Can use with pc and virtual power interface or on it’s own with no pc.
Videos are good but I tend to go for the virtual terrain courses.
Virtual power is surprisingly accurate measured against a powertap.

I’ll have a look at the Cyclops….the Tacx ones bar the Satori are a bit on the pricey side.

I’m limited in the amount of time I can ride – each week I probably get in a couple of 12 mile each way commutes, two trail runs of about 40 minutes a time (my version of some form of aerobic ‘active’ recovery off the bike), one sufferfest and perhaps one ride 2-4 hours long.

I’m doing the Etape in July, so was looking to get ready for that and long rides 90+ miles aren’t always an option time wise.

How do you improve your 20MP? This sounds like I’m going to need a power meter?

As a power meter user I would only recommend one if you feel like you’ve taken how you currently train as far as it can go, to get the best out of it you end up turning into an analy retentive f’kin weirdo who over analyses every single ride….

They’re a useful tool but expensive and unless you’re prepared to turn into the above I reckon TrainerRoad is just as good for the turbo training side of things, as long as you keep your setup consistent it’ll be a reliable training partner.

As posted above

thomthumb – Member
http://www.biketechreview.com/performance/supply/47-base-a-new-definition

A fair debunking of some of the reasons for base miles there.

mtbtomo, this is a good read for those with an event a good few months away. http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2010/10/base-1-training-part-3.html
Parts 1-4. Gives a reason for base miles and how to/why increase training load or intensity. Between the link above and this, it seems to suggest that base miles may not be so important overall as old roadie wisdom suggests but equally 5 months of regular LTHR sessions may be a bit much.. There’s a balance in there based on time available.

Yep, it talks about 20MP but unless I wasn’t reading correctly, it didn’t seem to suggest how to improve it?

Sorry, didn’t mean to repost that 20MP link as an answer, more me noting that is dismisses some of the reasons I thought base miles were needed.

JF’s blog mentions 20-40 mins total (2×15 mins, 5x5mins etc intervals at threshold with 25% breaks) as effective LT training, and this link explains increasing FTP –
http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/11/02/peaks-coaching-take-your-performance-to-the-next-level/

All I’ve done is use this to help figure out what HR area or effort level to be at when doing cross-overs or long intervals on the turbo. That and 90 mins/to fatigue sections within a 3-4hr road ride. Seems to have helped but it’s a way off the training volumes JF’s blog and this article suggest. 20-30 mins at LTHR is pretty hard to do in one go but feels like it does some good after a few months of 1x a week.

http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2011/04/zone-3-and-ftp.html

I have an Elite Chrono Hydro-Mag. In the 53/12 with maximum resistance, it takes an effort to keep the wheels moving at all. 50 rpm takes somewhere around 350 W. Needless to say, that doesn’t last long.

I bought a Volare Elite Mag Turbo a couple of months ago for half price from Halfords.

It’s been fantastic right up until today, when toward the end of a high intensity session, I smelt burning. When the rotor span down, I noticed the plastic housing along with the magnet housing(?) had melted and is now all rubbing.

Gutted. Will send it back Monday; hope they have more in stock as it was so good.

So the question is does ‘base’ mean lots of slow steady miles out in the wet and cold?

Nope, ‘Base’ hasn’t meant that for at least a decade. The aim of the base phase is to maximise FTP amongst other, not mutually exclusive, things. Lots of LSD typically does not do a great job of maximising FTP unless you do loads of it, even then more could be achieved in less time.

So yeah, lots of efforts just below FTP, sweetspot during the week. Then longer rides with efforts above threshold to keep you sharp at the weekend.

So I went for a Tacx Blue Motion – even on setting 7 and low down the gear range its way tougher than the Elite on full resistance.

Paid up for some trainerroad and dongle/speed and cadence sensors and had a go at the FTP 20 minute session. Horrendous! 😉

So the only thing non-LSD sessions won’t give me is getting used t being in the saddle for long periods.