I find that if polypropylene gets even slightly damp through sweat then when I stop the activity I will cool down really quickly and shiver – as others have said the advantage of merino is that you stay warm even when damp.

Merino is OK, but it’s not the miracle people say it is, if it get’s wet it stays wet and stops being insulating.

Polyprop repels water which is why it doesn’t ‘wick’ like lycra (or cotton, or wool), if you dunk a fleece in water, it won’t draw water up, but if you put it over a bowl of hot water the steam passes straight through, do the same with lycra or merino and you end up with damp lycra/merino.

I have merino baselayers, and they’re my go-to most days, but for properly cold days polyprop base layers are almost unbearably hot when the temperature goes back above zero.

Polyprop repels water which is why it doesn’t ‘wick’ like lycra (or cotton, or wool)

Hmm.

Cotton soaks up water, which is why it ‘wicks’ when you stick a piece of it in water. But we don’t want this in our outdoor gear, as we end up with lots of water not going anywhere. You don’t want the base layer to soak up water, you want it to transport it.

Fine enough fleece will wick via capilliary action not absorbtion. Wear a fine fleece as a mid layer, do lots of hard work then take the outer shell off – you’ll see a mist on the outside of the fleece. The temperature and humidity gradient transport the water – which is why the glass of water experiment isn’t a good model for outdoor wear.

In other words – just because a fibre doesn’t absorb water, doesn’t mean it’s bad at wicking – it means it’s good.

My best ever wicking Mountain Warehouse base layers are made from polyester as are my fleeces IIRC.

In winter you want polypropylene for base layer

but for properly cold days polyprop base layers are almost unbearably hot when the temperature goes back above zero.

Polyprop repels water which is why it doesn’t ‘wick’

I’m not sure I entirely follow your reasoning but I may have understood …

Firstly, a base layer should wick – that’s one of it’s prime purposes isn’t it?
Secondly, Winter days often start off really cold and then air temps end up much milder with the effects of solar radiation etc, before dropping dramatically again when the sun sets. I would have therefore thought that material that becomes ‘unbearably hot’ should be avoided.

Rule of thumb in winter activities is take a layer off before you get hot and put a layer on before you get cold. Having an ‘unbearably hot’ layer sounds like something best avoided in my experience – rather like when you see people out UK hill walking in a down ‘belay jacket’ and then they wonder why it’s wet through on the inside and they are uncomfortable for the rest of the day.

Windstopper base layer is for when you sit directly under an AC unit at work but are still expected to have a professional shirt+tie appearance. Can’t think of any other use for one.

Different things work for different people so there isn’t a single answer.

If you’re sweaty then there aren’t fabrics that will wick everything to an outer layer that is breathable to let it through. In that instance you need multiple layers to keep you warm but that don’t lose their insulation when damp. That’s me and I find merino base layers ideal for that and much nicer next to the skin when damp than synthetics.

If you’re not sweaty then the classic wicking base later followed by breathable layers to a windproof outer is what you need.

That’s me and I find merino base layers ideal for that

Same here! My standard winter attire [in the mountains] after years of trial & error, mix & matching is:

Merino boxers
Merino Long-johns
Merino socks
GoreTex shell pants (with vents)

2 x Merino LS tops
GoreTex Shell jacket

When touring/skinning I will normally remove the shell jacket.
The merino tops mean than even when my back is sweaty from carrying the backpack, I won’t get chilly as I cool down.

But yes – different things work well for different people.

So Digby – do you sweat much in that getup?

I sweat plenty (last night I went running in around 0C weather, I wore a tshirt, and it was still soaked through with sweat and it was dripping off my forehead – at the same time as my bare arms were stinging with cold air), and I hate merino because it just gets soggy and baggy.

My polyester layers move much more of the moisture so there is much less dampness and I’m still warm because I have enough insulation layers on. In principle, at least – usually I’m in just a base layer and light soft shell on the bike, it has to be damn cold for me to put a third layer in.

HH normal are great, HH warm are very warm. Skiing more than riding IME.

I have some old M&S warm base layers which are incredibly warm. Too warm for lowland activities IME again

In the usual STW vein of recommend what you own.

I got one of these free from Human Race for doing a number of their events, made by Craft, been really good, warm but not so warm you overheat, comfortable next to skin and wicks really well

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/craft-active-extreme-20-cn-ls-base-layer/?lang=en&curr=GBP&dest=1&sku=5360770305&kpid=5360770305&utm_source=google&utm_term&utm_campaign=UK_PLA_Clothing&utm_medium=base&utm_content=mkwid%7csrxeQDmCr_dc%7cpcrid%7c67090791782%7cpkw%7c%7cpmt%7c%7cprd%7c5360770305uk

do you sweat much in that getup?

I tend to run quite ‘hot and moist’ at the slightest bit of physical exercise! 😳

But that ‘getup’ has proven to be a good compromise and the best at avoiding me being uncomfortable.

When ‘cruising the groomers’ I would be unlikely to break out in a sweat from about plus 3 Celsius down to about -7. Outside of that range I would adapt and remove/add a layer.

When climbing/bootpacking/skinning I would avoid setting a pace that resulted in overheating as once you overheat I find it’s hard to get control over your body temp again in colder climates. But to answer your question, yes I sweat but not excessively – it tends to be my back (under the backpack) and my forehead (absorbed by a buff or sunhat)

edit – just read your addendum Molgrips – my previously exception was running in merino: Like you it just gets sweaty and baggy. I once ran in merino in Canada in minus 20 and I still got sweaty and baggy!
For running in cold temps I’ll wear an Arcteryx Phase base layer and lightweight jacket or technical t-shirt on top (depending on the wind, rain, snow etc)

A big difference I think is the relative humidity/dew point in the UK compared to the alps etc – which means I tend to sweat more when exercising in the UK, so I adjust my wardrobe accordingly.

Lidl France currently has ski base layer in stock. I prefer it to Northface, Northcape and some fancy merino things I’ve got.

A big difference I think is the relative humidity/dew point in the UK compared to the alps etc – which means I tend to sweat more when exercising in the UK, so I adjust my wardrobe accordingly.

Very good point. Relative humidity is pretty high in the UK, especially when the winds are coming from the south or west.

edit – just read your addendum Molgrips – my previously exception was running in merino: Like you it just gets sweaty and baggy

I am probably guilty of not reading properly but I am talking about riding mostly, and in the UK.

Craft Extreme Zero base layers are the ultimate answer for this. You can go out in one down to zero degrees with just a normal jersey over the top. Amazingly good quality (some of mine are 7 years old) and just wonderful to wear.

They do one with a layer of Gore Windstopper on the front , over the normal fabric. They’re great, you can then go out on a windy but not rainy day without having to put on a boil in the bag coat to stop the wind. I have two and lover them.

Yeah but the disadvantage of having two functions in one garment (windproofing and wicking) is that you can’t just remove one if conditions change. This is why personally I dont’ wear them. Especially MTBing where you might be winching up a big climb for ages then pop out of trees into cold wind for a long descent.

I am talking about riding mostly, and in the UK.

And I think I went off at something of a tangent with the merino pants and mountains etc … apologies … however to be fair this is in the ‘chat’ forum and the OP’s slightly vague request was just for a ‘seriously warm inexpensive base layer’. No activity was specified.

From a personal perspective I don’t think I would ever wear anything ‘seriously warm’ i.e. ‘insulated’ etc on the bike as I’d be ‘steaming’ within minutes. I’d rather have a gillet or something that can be quickly removed and put back on again.

I’ve got one of these

definitely one of my warmest base layers.

Merino is OK, but it’s not the miracle people say it is, if it get’s wet it stays wet and stops being insulating.

Yep, given away all my Icebreaker stuff and just use Polartec Power Dry or HH Lifas.

I have been very impressed and kept very warm Icebreaker Merino (stink free too), Cheap Decathlon Ski baselayers (7 quid!) and Under Armour Coldgear (current favourite as the compression is ace).

You pay your money, you takes your choice!

I never really rated Icebreaker merino … it seems to develop holes and become ‘threadbare’ in places very quickly.

Over the years I’ve had merino from:

Howies
Icebreaker
Ortovox
Sweet Protection
Rapha
Race Face

My Howies Merino LS Tops (made in NZ) are over 10 years old and still going strong having done multiple winter seasons (although the armpits are a bit ‘stiff’ with deodorant) They are also the least itchy. The newer Howies merino tops don’t come anywhere close! 🙁

The Race Face ‘stark’ wool LS has been a bit of a revelation and so far has lasted much use, abuse and 40 degree washes with velcro and zips.

and I’ve worn merino for 2 weeks continuously without bathing (apart from wetwipes and ‘dry shower’) and I was very impressed with the low ‘pong’. Not a miracle by any stretch of the imagination but much ‘fresher’ than silk base layers – which tend to smell of ‘bums’ when not washed regularly! 😳

edit – lovin’ the chunky cable knit jimjam! 8)

and I’ve worn merino for 2 weeks continuously…

Pretty much this, albeit with washing sometimes. Lived in a merino T while driving to the Balkans and back in summer 2012. The lack of niff was appreciated.

I’d rather have a gillet or something that can be quickly removed and put back on again.

Yes – wore my Louis Garneau roadie winter top on the MTB the other day and regretted it. Boiled on the climbs. Works better on road because I generally still have decent airflow even when going up.

My icebreaker merino wore a big hole in the back under where my camelbak goes.

Firstly, a base layer should wick – that’s one of it’s prime purposes isn’t it?
Secondly, Winter days often start off really cold and then air temps end up much milder with the effects of solar radiation etc, before dropping dramatically again when the sun sets. I would have therefore thought that material that becomes ‘unbearably hot’ should be avoided.

It should be breathable, which is different to wicking.

Put on a merino or lycra baselayer and go for a run (or even better, put something warm on top and go for a run). The baselayer gets sodden. Take the outer layer off (like you would when out on the bike and warming up) and you’re stood there in a wet t-shirt.

Repeat the experiment in polypropylene and it will be much, much dryer.

Same applies if you get caught in a downpour, fall in a river, etc. Polypropylene layers don’t hold water. I wear it under my wetuit when sailing as well, take the wetsuit off and it’s clammy rather than “wring it out” like a lycra rash vest.

Rule of thumb in winter activities is take a layer off before you get hot and put a layer on before you get cold. Having an ‘unbearably hot’ layer sounds like something best avoided in my experience – rather like when you see people out UK hill walking in a down ‘belay jacket’ and then they wonder why it’s wet through on the inside and they are uncomfortable for the rest of the day.

Ok, unbearably hot is an exaggeration. How about “hot enough that you have to seriously re-calibate the number/type of layers you wear on top if you’re used to wearing lycra/merino. A polyprop base layer under a windstopper type jersey is about as a lycra base layer, under the same jersey, under a softshell.

Put on a merino or lycra baselayer and go for a run

I think we’d already discussed the fact that merino is perhaps not an ideal choice for intense activities like running.

Horses for courses and and all that.

Different base layers can have different roles and suit different conditions/people.

It should be breathable, which is different to wicking

From my perspective, a close fitting base layer should wick and a fleece layer should be ‘breathable’. You may wear one, the other or both depending on the circumstances:

Arcteryx explain this quite nicely with a summary of the technologies available in their base layer range:

Arcteryx Base layer info

Decathlon’s new range from their basic to the Xtra Warm are great.
Kept me toasty on the run down to Italy last month on the GS despite it being -6 and more without windchill!

Before OP gets excited, Arcteryx != inexpensive

Great company, just don’t expect to buy one if you need a cheap BL.

I suffer badly with the cold (especially a recent ride in -8 temps). I read an article recently on Cyclingtips by a Pro roadie who mentioned that the best way to stay warm in winter is a string vest base layer with another normal style one over the top. Tried it, works a treat.

cheers for that, was just going to ask something similar, have rapha mesh ones, but a full jersey under my jacket feels too bulky, will try just that