Anyone got any recommendations for a good sports psychologist happy to work with amateurs?

Hhhhmmm, judging by the cost of a normal psychologist I think this would not be cheap. Do you live anywhere near a Uni that specialises in Sports Science such as Leeds Carnegie or Loughborough, there may be students who are looking for someone to practice on. Alternatively you could try one of the sports pscych books, I just got The Chimp Paradox by Steve Peters who is Team GB cycle team team psych, not started reading it yet though…

Thanks olddog.

I know it wont be cheap, but if it helps, then it’ll be worth it. 🙂

Will look into the uni options. A book isn’t going to do it, I really need someone to talk through the issues with.

Are there any local sports clubs you can join? You may find that they have a deal with a Sports Psychologist as part of membership.

If you’re anywhere near Derbyshire, there’s a chap called Dave Doig. He’s dabbled in DH, 4X and BMX racing, and helped a few people I know overcome “the fear” to race again after bad crashes.

I am member of MCS, but have asked around and not got anywhere yet. I imagine if there are any, they have gone into hiding at the thought of having to deal with me 😆

mike-at-dialledbikes – Member

If you’re anywhere near Derbyshire, there’s a chap called Dave Doig. He’s dabbled in DH, 4X and BMX racing, and helped a few people I know overcome “the fear” to race again after bad crashes.

Thanks Mike. Is this the guy?

http://www.lifedevelopments.co.uk/

Yes. I was going to see him myself a few years ago when I wanted to be a bit more competitive at BMX and 4X racing and take it a bit more seriously. But in the end I accepted I’ll always be a bit crap and should just race for fun.

But in the end I accepted I’ll always be a bit crap and should just race for fun.

If you read Joe Friel’s book on training, he reckons it takes 5 years dedicated training just to find out if you have what it takes to be an Elite rider, only most people never stick it out for 5 years, hence give up before they really know if they can cut it or not.

Are you near Sheffield? This guy’s a good friend and great guy. Wouldn’t know about how you’d go about getting his services but as an academic I’m sure there’s plenty scope. I won’t mention which world class downhill rider from Sheffield he helped to finally win his striped jersey… But don’t let that level of client put you off, he’s completely down to earth.

http://www.shu.ac.uk/research/cses/sp_rob_copeland.html

OP – you don’t have to answer this, but is it race training type psych support or overcoming “the fear” .
(or something else?). On the former you may get what you need from a performance coach at a club, if it’s the latter I’ve read good things about courses run by Jedi and Ed at great rock at Gisburn. I’ve been tempted by the latter myself but not around to it.

Personally, I get the fear sometimes. I really seems to be affected by my mood, some days I go well others my confidence is just lacking and I have to back off. I’ve stopped worrying too much about it now as I realise it comes and goes, although it would be interesting to work out what triggers it.

…

It’s fine, I don’t mind answering 🙂

It’s not ‘the fear’….I have totally dealt with that and am happy to know when I can and can’t push my limits (thanks to Jedi at UK bike skills, of course!) Although it can be infinitely frustrating to sometimes have to walk away, I know I can always come back to stuff when I am ready for it and know that tends to happen a lot quicker than it used to. On the whole I ride bigger stuff than I ever thought possible and am happy on the bike, even though I am never going to be a genetically gifted ‘natural’ rider.

It’s directly a ‘racing’ issue. Very complicated and I could be here all day trying to explain it and getting nowhere, which is why I want the sports psychologist. Essentially, I want to race DH more than anything, but I hate it when I do it. So I tell myself (and everyone else) I’m never going to race again. But then I wake up every weekend cursing that I was too weak to overcome it and deal with the nerves/fear of failure. Marshalling was torture…I thought it may have been good as it would get me involved so I could enjoy the atmosphere without the pressure, but it just rubbed salt in the wounds. I’m never going to be a pro/elite, but I can hold my own in an amateur field and my results have been reasonable even though I can’t ride anywhere near as well in a race as when I’m just chilling with the guys. Also, part of the problem was that racing was making me take much bigger technical risks on days when I may have walked away just to get that bit of extra time….so hitting a road gap with a dodgy run in on a slippy wet day rather than saying ‘stuff it, chicken line for today’ and I think I scared myself when I realised I maybe couldn’t trust my own judgement any more.

Thanks for the linky Jimmy – will look into it 🙂

It’s a long time since I did properly competive sport but I recognise the feelings and I have a sneaking suspicion that others racing may have similar. I know that the pre-event/match fear and the relief of the near disaster escape was part of the buzz. I think it is the desire to push the boundaries of comfort that drives up performance, but by definition it is going to be uncomfortable…

I’ll not even attempt any more amateur psychology as I would only be projecting my own issues onto yours and I could write a very boring book on my own hangups given very little prompting, as I think most people could tbh.- this is why well meant advice from friends is often misplaced as it tends to be more about them than you in my experience.

But I totally respect you and your desire to race and to address the barriers that are constraining you.

Footflaps, I had no aspirations to be anywhere near Elite level, I just wanted to be a better weekend warrior racer. In the end, I also thought seeing a head doc was probably taking things a bit too seriously.

olddog – I totally agree with that.

In the end, I also thought seeing a head doc was probably taking things a bit too seriously

Interesting. I guess a lot of people will feel the same when I tell them I am taking this route, but no-one ever seems bothered about the fact I have bikes that are way more capable than I am. Skills 1:1 training/coaching is also becoming ‘the norm’ for a lot of people…..and yet the ‘head doctor’ seems to still be a step too far. Even though, for most, it is probably the biggest bearing of all on their success. Much more so than either the equipment or their innate technical ability.

lgb, have you considered entering some gravity enduro races so you can combine the race mentality (and related issues) with a course which isn’t quite so high risk? Also, have you crashed when having moments of ‘poor judgement’ or have you just got closer to the limits (which is what racing should require!)?

Also, based on interviews I’ve read with pro DH riders I get the impression that quite a few don’t actually enjoy race day – I’m sure I’ve seen Steve Peat refer to having to ride so fast it’s no longer fun and is just scary and that Anne-Caroline Chausson used to be literally sick before every race!

The Gravity Enduro format doesn’t appeal to me tbh. I have had a lot of encouragement from people I ride with to have a go but I just don’t really fancy it. I like the comfort of the big bike, and the one area I am better is the jumpy stuff rather than the techy rooty stuff. I like the ‘acuteness’ of the DH format. It has to be right, it has to come together perfectly….but then this is also the reason I hate it.

I am planning to do a 24 hr solo next year, but that will be for fun. I guess the pressure is less for me mentally. All I have to do is pootle round as long as I can and it’s a personal endurance challenge rather than a mental challenge. I’m struggling to explain the difference, but there is one. I guess maybe because I don’t feel any pressure to perform on a 24 hr solo…..just doing it and getting round will be such a massive achievement for someone like me who is not naturally fit. I wouldn’t expect to place anywhere.

No I haven’t crashed when I have been having moments of poor judgement whilst in practice. (Well, once, but I kind of knew before I hit it I was probably going to case it, I just wanted to see by how much :p ). I did get told at my last race practice (which I got a DNS) I was either going to break myself or the bike though after a bit of a heavy landing. It wasn’t out of control, just untidy.

The question is – does racing REALLY require someone to race right on their limits, or can people be happy knowing that they raced to the best of their ability within their own comfort zone? Also, would I ever be happy doing that (the answer is no, I know this already, I’m just in denial). I guess racing makes me realise my own technical ability isn’t anywhere near as good as I want it to be….but the stupid thing is, no matter how much I improve, I’m still not as good as I would like.

Some of my colleagues from here

http://www.staffs.ac.uk/faculties/health/subjects_and_courses/sport_and_exercise/index.jsp

Take your pick or send a general e-mail to all of them

Dr. Marc Jones
marc.jones@staffs.ac.uk

Dr. Jamie Barker
j.b.barker@staffs.ac.uk

Dr. Charlottoe Woodcock
charlotte.woodcock@staffs.ac.uk

Dr. Naomi Ellis
n.j.ellis@staffs.ac.uk

All really good sports psychologists, all with publications and books to their credit, all thoroughly approachable and passionate about their subject, all members of and accredited with the British Association of Sport and Exercise Sciences and/or the British Psychological Association

Oh wow, thanks Andy 🙂

The more I practice the luckier I get – not sure who said this (the golfer Gary Player I think). You need to ride sections over and over again. The sports physiologists can help you with how to prepare, how to have a positive, confident winning attitude and as all that have been to Tony have seen the mental side is cruicial. I’d suggest also trying to connect and then train with some other DHers perhaps ladies if that means you’ll have a better rapport and also I imagine technique is likely to be a little different, more finesse shall we say. That brings me back to my initial point, if you are trying to get serious about it you need to train in an organised fashion and not only go for a ride.

The question is – does racing REALLY require someone to race right on their limits, or can people be happy knowing that they raced to the best of their ability within their own comfort zone?

If you plan to do one amazing race and then retire then yes to the former! But in the real world every sportsperson is subconsciously or consciously managing the risks they take, and I don’t think you should castigate yourself for doing so. Tony talked about you when he was coaching me and I got the impression that you’re a good rider, certainly above my level, so when you’re racing you will need to manage risk to a degree as very bad things can happen when you’re going big and fast but operating close to your limits.

That brings me back to my initial point, if you are trying to get serious about it you need to train in an organised fashion and not only go for a ride.

This actually hits the nail spot on, right on the head. I am more than capable of organising my training, riding sections until I perfect them within my ability, dragging the bike to the race course as soon as I hear which one it will be and picking lines until it’s too dark to see them anymore. The training/racing practicalities are not the issue.

What I want to do is be able to ‘just enjoy it’. Enjoy the process, and making the best of what I have, but without getting ‘serious’. I guess if you ask most people what my problem is, they would say ‘she just takes it too seriously’. Actually, anyone unlucky enough to meet me on race day would probably say a lot of other stuff as well, mostly unrepeatable.

I am highly strung at the best of times, racing normally tips me over the edge. I’d love to be one of them ‘cool’ people that everyone likes to be around, who just deals with stuff and never seems phased. That’s never going to happen, but it would be nice if my highly-strungness would stop getting in the way of me achieving anything.

chiefgrooveguru. Agree with that for sure.

Btw, Tony has much more belief in my abilities than I do, I wish you could get a pocket wind-up operated Tony to pull out at crucial moments 😆

LGB, my “taking it too seriously” comment was aimed directly at me, not in any way applicable to you. If you think seeing a sports psych will enhance your cycling experience, go for it.

I just didn’t in the end (if you saw me ride/race you would realise I need help in lots of other areas first!).

Let us know how it works out.

If you are Jo then your riding over Style Cop is pretty impressive already.

Stile Cop doesn’t count though! It’s timed practice not racing as we know 😉 and I have always come first AND last, because I’ve been the only girl on the couple of occasions I have made it to a Guild day.

But again, it’s not so much about the riding/skills, it’s about the fact that I really want to become a ‘racer’ but just can’t seem to get my head around it.

OP – sorry, I know you’re looking for a person not a book, but I’m still going to recommend getting a copy of Inner Skiing by Tim Gallwey and Rob Kriegel.

I think it deals quite nicely with some of the issues you raised.

Jo,I would prescribe a course of something that no one else has offered yet, that being some MTFU tablets. 😆
For what its worth when playing competitive rugby I used to do all the visualisation techniques all the physical training etc etc but the main thing that I always felt I had when taking the field to play against anyone that was physically stronger/bigger/technically better was that mentally I was hard as nails and would not be beaten and was playing for one reason and one reason only and that was to win. I would hate it at the end of the match if we had lost but would always know I had given 110% and I saw so many players who went out with a defeatist attitude getting injured in contact situations.
Difficult to get exactly the same transfer of mindset to your situation individual racing and ultimately you really have to be totally fearless but know that technically and physically you are at the top of your game and know you are the best in your own mind.
My mantra is ‘Believe in yourself’ and honestly feel that believing in anything else apart from me being in control of my destiny/ability is pointless and non productive and whilst it may sound like I am being controversial that is why I have no belief or interest in religion-IMO it is for people who cannot believe in themselves. Not that people that believe in religion are wrong for their own circumstances it may suit.
Until you believe in yourself completely and get rid of your self doubt that you have always had from those early days you will not reach your full ‘race’ potential.
You know that us blokes that have ridden with you have always been in awe of your bottle and bike skills that you have gained but having bottle to take a chance and ‘knowing’ you are the best are still a step apart that you will need someone smarter than me to teach you to overcome. Hope you reach a point in your riding/life that you can realise your full potential.

Now I sit back and prepare to be flayed, flogged and hung drawn and quartered for my thoughts but at the end of the day I stand by them as its what I truly believe.

I am highly strung at the best of times

What I want to do is be able to ‘just enjoy it’. Enjoy the process, and making the best of what I have, but without getting ‘serious’. I guess if you ask most people what my problem is, they would say ‘she just takes it too seriously’

So is it just the sport stuff that is causing issues or are you just a “driven” person in other aspects of your life?

I can recognise the issues in quite a few people I know 🙄

Sorry just a question, no answers…

After trying to make my 3rd comeback at squash having seriously twisted my knee I have finally accepted the fact I can no longer carry on. I had difficulty accepting this for a while but considering my GP advised me to give up nigh on 30yrs ago 🙄 I “retired” happy in the knowledge that in one of my last games I managed a win over the club champion, much to his annoyance 😆

The first time I was forced to “retire” from playing squash was due to recurring back problems. I was becoming frustrated at my inability to progress due to the fact I was constantly in pain. I stopped for 3yrs and returned again having built up a fair bit of fitness due to taking up “all-terrain biking” (now mtb) and receiving a bit of physio. Unfortunately the cycle repeated itself but this time I stopped before the frustration set in 💡 Different circumstances from you I know. Just a wee story…

As for biking I am limited to what I can do due to the same knee issues, a dodgy back and a bit of whiplash induced neck pain ❗ Again I get no sympathy when and if I do have to visit a GP(all new, young ones who don`t really know my history)
Luckily I have always been surrounded by supportive people whether squash or bikers and with their help have always managed to soldier on.

LGB – Suggsey’s advice to MTFU while well intentioned, may not work for you at all. Why? Because you’re not a man. Apparently your female brain works differently than ours.

Judy Freeman (US Pro XC racer) writes about it in her blog here.

Obviously, you can ride at a pretty high level, and you know this. But my guess is that the added stress of a race situation is enough to push you into the territory that Judy is talking about.

How do I know this? Though we have never met and I am not a female and therefore can’t possibly understand how your brain works, I am morally obligated to offer advice in an area that I have no experience or qualifications in while being several time zones away across the ocean because this is STW!

I guess racing makes me realise my own technical ability isn’t anywhere near as good as I want it to be….

[quote] it’s not so much about the riding/skills, it’s about the fact that I really want to become a ‘racer’ but just can’t seem to get my head around it. [/quote]All good DH racers are not just very good riders they are also very confident of their own ability.
You at the moment sound neither.
You need to work on improving your weaknesses. Gaining riding skills/speed/experience will all help your confidence which will in turn allow you to push your skills further again. The more you improve (riding and/or results) the more confident you’ll become.

I’d also try to find the time to ask yourself why you feel you need to be a “racer”

Becoming “good at DH racing” is something that needs to be learned IME.. having someone experienced around should make it easier for you to learn what you need to do, from fitness/skills training to pre-race preparation to travel, to walking the track, spotting/choosing lines, managing practice time efficiently, optomising bike set-up for track/conditions etc. so everything can fall into place on race morning and you’re prepared for that last full practice run to be close to a clean fast race run (but prossibly still holding back a little for the final). then it’s upto you to use everything you’ve learned that weekend confident in the start hut to put it all together against the clock.

I’m never going to be a pro/elite, but I can hold my own in an amateur field

This statement confuses me ^^
Why do you want to pay a sports psychologist if this is really what you think? what level are you aiming for?
The reality here is that you’re lucky if there are 10 women over all categories (junior/senior/Elite/master/vet) racing at a UK national DH race (and often less than half that at many regionals) it really isn’t all that difficult if you have the money to achieve an elite womens racing license for DH in the UK, you just need to use your head and chase points at the right races.

Thanks for the replies all.

Suggesy, you may be right, but then, as JoeG points out….MTFU may not work at all (thanks for the linky Joe, I know others who will fin that useful).

To be fair, I have tried, and as you know, I am not one to give up lightly and have had quite a journey to get to where I am now already….but self belief is never something I have had a lot of. I know this is going to make me sound awful, but hey ho, it’s the truth….on every race I have turned up, took one look at the competition and thought, holy crap I’m going to be last, which is the worst feeling in the world. Even though actually, in every case, it has been very much far from the truth.

I guess I would like to be in a place where I could turn up, look at the competition, think, “oh ‘eck these are fab riders, I’m probably going to come last, but WGAS….I’m going to have fun anyway and still race, and enjoy doing so”. I think this may not be possible for me though, and I hate myself for being so competitive. Tony has said don’t race the clock, or the competition, race the trail. I have tried, but I just can’t get my head around it.

Trekster….no I can be driven to unacceptability in pretty much anything. Thanks for the incites – hope you do manage to keep riding round/with the pain. It must be frustrating as hell.

Why do you want to pay a sports psychologist if this is really what you think?

Because I can
Because it’s something I want to do
Because I would like to see just how far I can take my riding with the ability/time/money that I have

All good DH racers are not just very good riders they are also very confident of their own ability.
You at the moment sound neither.

I don’t want to be a good racer. I just want to be one. It’s more about being able to enjoy the journey and experience of seeing how far I can take my riding.

I’m not a bad rider btw – but I would trade the fact that I have podiumed on every race I have actually got to the start line, to have enjoyed every one instead.

LGB – Another thing that you should read 😉 …

Switchback Magazine, Issue 5 (Aug/Sep 2012) article on Willow Rockwell (Koerber) who stopped racing after her daughter was born. While IMO she’s a bit flaky (in a new-age crystals and karma sort of way, even for a woman 😀 ) she says that she never enjoyed riding until after she quit racing. For the first time ever, she stopped mid-ride (she could, it wasn’t training) at an overlook or something. She had never done that before as she had started racing almost as soon as she started riding. Then raced through her teens, in college, then as a pro. She was pretty successful, but from what I remember it seemed that she did it out of competitiveness and being a perfectionist, not because she enjoyed it. Not quite the same as you, but in the ballpark.

If you can’t get the magazine, let me know and I’ll figure out a way to get the article to you somehow (photo w/digital camera or something).

I really hope that you’re able to find the enjoyment and satisfaction that you are looking for from racing DH.

lgb I’m far from an expert but it seems your issues are far more than just cycling related. Maybe explore methods that will help you chill out in general. You never know this might trickle down to your riding.

Thanks Joe. I’ll look into it when I’m back on a proper computer and let you know if I can’t find it.

Chipsngravy – yep this I also know….however I am pretty good at dealing with my highly-strungness after years of practice in most other situations. I won’t give details of my history etc but one thing is for sure, I have been through far worse than not being able to get to the start line at a race. Which I guess is why it’s so frustrating that I can’t work out how to deal with something that is essentially pretty minor.

I think some people look down on sports psychology but it’s just another set of skills for riding your bike, no less relevant or useful than riding skill, and if it makes you get more out of it then why not? There’s plenty of people who have good bike handling skills but less good brain-handling skills.

Jo the MTFU was tongue in cheek, but the main fact of my understanding of your riding is as you have admitted lack of self belief.
I dont know if a sports psychologist can ever instil the level of self belief in you that is needed for you to succeed as I personally belief that if you are ‘hard wired’ with a lack of self belief that is the way that your brain will stay. I make this observation from the many years that I have been involved with family and friends with psychological issues and the psychological help some of them have received professionally. Some the psychologist helped to retrain others just seem to be unable to break the ‘hard wiring’ or always resort back to type.
I hope you do manage to find a suitable psychologist could I suggest not necessarily a sports psychologist as any negative emotions that you feel about yourself could be more deep seated than just related to specific sports situations. I make this comment from experience with others Jo and you may well be surprised what a non sports psychologist can achieve too for you.

lgb, is downhill racing the first sport you’ve competed in? If not, did you feel the same way in those situations?

Have your podium places had any positive bearing upon how you feel the next time you race?

Mayby try a different approach? Instead of thinking your way out of it (analysis), just do it (exposure), and accept the nervous feelings. Does it matter if you go flat out or or not perform to your very best ? See if this reduces the fight or flight feelings (nervousness) you seem to be getting.

Thanks Suggs – I know what you mean, but I’m kind of ‘over’ the exploration process. I have many reasons for why I am the person I am, what I want is positive, practical solutions on how to work with it to still get the best out of my riding.

lgb, is downhill racing the first sport you’ve competed in? If not, did you feel the same way in those situations?

No it isn’t. I have run competitively and powerlifted.

Did I feel the same way? Not when running, because I am truely atrocious at running so it was only ever a personal challenge, not a competitive one for me.

Powerlifting – yes, most definitely so. Again pretty high pressure environment to perform at your max perfectly for a very short space of time. Only competed once and, despite the fact I could have easily got into nationals (powerlifting suffers even more so from lack of female participation so it’s easy to qualify), I just couldn’t bear the thought of competing again.

Have your podium places had any positive bearing upon how you feel the next time you race?

No, negative I would say, because it’s almost felt like the expectation from friends etc that I would perform gets greater and then I feel more external pressure….as well as the pressure from myself to do so. I have people predicting my placing before I have even had a practice run and it’s daunting. Even though I know it shouldn’t be.

Mayby try a different approach? Instead of thinking your way out of it (analysis), just do it (exposure), and accept the nervous feelings. Does it matter if you go flat out or or not perform to your very best ? See if this reduces the fight or flight feelings (nervousness) you seem to be getting.

This was my plan for the year. Exactly what you say above. Get used to the racing environment, deal with it and it would get easier like everyone kept telling me. Exposure didn’t work as I soon found out, that for me, it mattered massively whether I performed at my best. Then I just kept getting really stressed on race days and unable to interact with people properly causing me even more stress as I would feel guilty for being in such a state over something so meaningless as a bicycle race! *bangs head*