Recent immigrants make net contribution

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  • Recent immigrants make net contribution
  • hh45
    Member

    I’m not totally anti-immigration, but I am for selective immigration. The population of the UK currently stands at about 63 million – it’s bursting at the seams, there are millions out of work, the NHS and other services are on their uppers yet still we are happy to let in criminals and asylum seekers who have no right to be here and then spend an aeon sending them back or putting them in OUR prisons.

    At the current rate, estimates are that the population of the UK will be 80 million by 2020 – how is that going to help the country to function better?

    +1

    ever wondered why the countryside is so crowded? house prices so high? Roads so clogged? England is the most densely populated country in Europe (Ive specifically left out Scotland as whilst it is wonderfully empty its not much use to those of us squeezed into the SE, having to pretend the Surrey Hills are a great unspoiled tract of countryside etc).

    Immigrants may well works their socks off but over crowding is the issue for me. No wonder so many people want to live in France / Spain / Italy / Canada / New Zealand etc – all have much lower densities than us and that has a direct bearing on quality of life.

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    Leaving aside the fact that the UK is not the most densely populated place in Europe, what is the point? When you flyover the UK the most striking things is the amount of sheer open space in our green and pleasant land! Are you sure of your causation links?

    This is not a bad read IMO

    http://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/fiscal-impact-immigration-uk

    hh45
    Member

    the UK is not the most densely populated place in Europe,

    But England is. and all that greeness? its not really open countryside is it – find me somewhere where you are more than a mile in any direction from a road, a house, a pylon, a village? Never mind some $hite commuter town and a motorway. Not many such spots in England are there?

    I accept my views on countryside are a bit extreme but with the coalition all set to allow much more house building in the countryside its just going to get worse. We need space, proper green open space. Thats all.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    hh45 – Member

    But England is.

    The Netherlands are apparently.

    But if you take the most populated parts of Belgium and just don’t count the emptier bits, for some arbitrary reason, then its population goes up too.

    Junkyard
    Member

    I found it was Gibraltar and the Vatican City – read into that what you want!!

    I dont think stopping immigration will transform the South into beautiful countryside with no houses, villages, roads or pylons and a massive increase in open space- do you?

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    …….. over crowding is the issue for me.

    But you have openly endorsed the comment : “we are happy to let in criminals and asylum seekers who have no right to be here”

    Which suggests that if they are not “criminals and asylum seekers” you wouldn’t have a problem with them. And that overcrowding isn’t the issue for you.

    BTW I can understand why you might have a problem with criminals but what have you got against asylum seekers ?

    CaptJon
    Member

    hh45 – Member
    ever wondered why the countryside is so crowded? house prices so high? Roads so clogged? England is the most densely populated country in Europe (Ive specifically left out Scotland as whilst it is wonderfully empty its not much use to those of us squeezed into the SE, having to pretend the Surrey Hills are a great unspoiled tract of countryside etc).

    Why didn’t you leave out London with its 4500 people/km2 versus the English average of 383 people/km2?

    And why isn’t Scotland’s sparseness useful? You could move for that better quality of life you talk about.

    oldnick
    Member

    The young Lithuanian woman who got the job at the hot food counter in my local butchers (largely by being the only person to apply for it) has made a net contribution to my enjoyment of lunchtime.

    konabunny
    Member

    I found it was Gibraltar and the Vatican City – read into that what you want!!

    Yeah, well, that just proves his point, doesn’t it? The Vatican is bursting at the seams with an aging population and a troubled economy, and literally 100% of those problems are caused by immigrants.

    mekon
    Member

    I haven’t got an issue with people coming to the UK and the free movement of people across the EU, maybe one day i’ll be riding the trails of North Italy or southern France. What I DO have an issue with is this bloody Government not putting in the resources and cutting council budgets THEN blaming it on the past government as a means and vehicle to pass business onto their chums.

    Premier Icon jambalaya
    Subscriber

    This research doesn’t fully reflect the issues.

    Firstly a very large number of economic migrants come here illegally and are not reflected in official statistics, if they’ve managed to come here illegally who’s to say they can’t claim benefits but trick the system that they were not immigrants ?
    Whilst immigrants may not claim benefit our tax policy (£10k tax free) means they take low paid jobs but enjoy all the benefits of the NHS etc without paying very much (or anything) towards them causing a material drag on the economy
    It’s a fact that so many Eastern Europeans were arriving, taking low paid jobs and then claiming child benefit for families outside the UK they couldn’t cope with the backlog.

    We should have a points based immigration policy (i.e. the more you can contribute the easier it is to get in, those taking low paid work would be reduced)
    We should have proper border controls which track when people arrive and when they leave. If people fail to leave then they should be tracked down and deported
    Employers found to be hiring people without the correct visas/work permits should be liable for costs of deporting them

    yunki
    Member

    Firstly a very large number of economic migrants come here illegally and are not reflected in official statistics, if they’ve managed to come here illegally who’s to say they can’t claim benefits but trick the system that they were not immigrants ?

    do you have any evidence to back this up?

    Premier Icon Lifer
    Subscriber

    jambalaya – Member
    This research doesn’t fully reflect the issues.

    Firstly a very large number of economic migrants come here illegally and are not reflected in official statistics, if they’ve managed to come here illegally who’s to say they can’t claim benefits but trick the system that they were not immigrants ?

    Immigration and benefits:

    ‘So if benefit “tourism” is still out even if the European Commission gets its way, long-term sponging won’t an option thanks to the government’s own crackdown, and there are other more attractive destinations closer to home, it’s difficult to see why floods of work-shy immigrants will be queuing up to make Britain their home.

    FactCheck asked the government for estimates of how big the problem of benefit tourism actually is, and whether it had got better or worse since the introduction of “right to reside” in 2004.

    A DWP spokesman said the department had “no information available”.’

    http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-benefit-tourism-scare-sent-packing/8050

    ‘The only way in which someone entering the UK could come and live off benefits from “day one” would be if their partner was happy to give them a slice of their own, should they be receiving any.

    But as we don’t know how many people on benefits then go on to sponsor a partner, we have no idea how many are prepared to do that.

    Likewise, we can’t say whether the vast majority of those who enter for family reasons and are entitled to handouts, go on to claim them, although we’ve previously shown that a smaller proportion of overseas nationals claim benefits than UK nationals.

    In these times of austerity, Ms May is, naturally, looking at reducing the burden on the state – whether through non-EU nationals or through UK citizens.

    The only problem is that we can’t find any way of saying how much that burden would be reduced by. We went back to the home office for clarification on Mr Green’s comments.

    They hadn’t responded by the time we went to press.’

    http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-minister-wrong-on-immigration/10785

    The then Employment Minister Chris Grayling, whose name will be familiar to regular readers, raised the issue of “benefit tourism” at the beginning of the year.

    Were increasing numbers of immigrants coming to these shores with a view to enjoying an easy life on benefits. Errr…no. We found that the claimant rate among overseas nationals has fallen by two thirds in a decade, despite the economic downturn.

    UKIP leader Nigel Farage took a similar line when he warned about how easy it is for Eastern European migrants to get a council house in Britain.

    The truth is that it’s not easy and only 1 per cent of people from the A8 nations, which include Poland and the Baltic States, were living in social housing the last time anyone checked.

    http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/2012-a-year-of-lying-shamelessly/12120

    5thElefant
    Member

    Working people after all are more than just a commodity, they are human beings with local roots, family, friends, and connections.

    No wonder ‘working people’ have trouble competing. I can’t think of a single person, friend or collegue, who works or lives near where they grew up, or lives near family. It’s beyond weird. When you grow up you move. If you get a new job you move.

    grum
    Member

    No wonder ‘working people’ have trouble competing. I can’t think of a single person, friend or collegue, who works or lives near where they grew up, or lives near family. It’s beyond weird. When you grow up you move. If you get a new job you move.

    What a sad world-view you have.

    Firstly a very large number of economic migrants come here illegally and are not reflected in official statistics, if they’ve managed to come here illegally who’s to say they can’t claim benefits but trick the system that they were not immigrants ?

    Who’s to say any old shite you want to make up to try and prove your point, without any evidence?

    5thElefant
    Member

    What a sad world-view you have.

    Is it? I thought it was normal.

    Premier Icon miketually
    Subscriber

    I can’t think of a single person, friend or collegue, who works or lives near where they grew up, or lives near family.

    I suspect that’s because of where you live. Down South, perhaps? Here in the North East, I know lots of people who work or live near to where they grew up.

    We currently live half way between my parents’ house and my in-laws’ house. We can walk to either of them in about ten minutes. I teach in my old sixth form college, which was also the grammar school where my dad went. In September, my eldest starts the secondary school which my wife and I went to. My youngest is taught by someone who was in my tutor group at sixth form; there’s a lad in her class whose dad was at school with me and another whose grandma taught me.

    And this is in Darlington, which is positively cosmopolitan compared to much of the rest of County Durham 🙂

    As Ernie said up there:

    Working people after all are more than just a commodity, they are human beings with local roots, family, friends, and connections. Chasing jobs might well fulfill the needs of the market but it does not necessarily fulfill the needs of happy and content human beings.

    Especially in light of recent threads on here on childcare costs and coping with school closures, I think we’re exceptionally lucky to live so close to our families and to the places we grew up.

    5thElefant
    Member

    I suspect that’s because of where you live. Down South, perhaps? Here in the North East, I know lots of people who work or live near to where they grew up.

    I went to uni near you so I know lots of your people. 😉 I can’t think of one that’s still there. Off the top of my head:

    – France
    – Denmark
    – Canada x2
    – Manchester-ish x2
    – Rotherham

    Premier Icon miketually
    Subscriber

    I went to uni near you so I know lots of your people.

    I suspect the same uni that I went to 🙂

    There is some flow in and out: my granddads were from Birmingham and the north of Scotland; both my sisters have moved ‘away’ – one to Newcastle (away is a relative term) and one to Avimore – and one of my two brothers has emigrated to Canada.

    grum
    Member

    Is it? I thought it was normal.

    Perhaps amongst people who are very ‘money-motivated’.

    No wonder ‘working people’ have trouble competing.

    And this – it’s very sad that life for some people is all about ‘competing’.

    Premier Icon mogrim
    Subscriber

    But England is. and all that greeness? its not really open countryside is it – find me somewhere where you are more than a mile in any direction from a road, a house, a pylon, a village? Never mind some $hite commuter town and a motorway. Not many such spots in England are there?

    That’s probably true of most of Europe, though – my wife’s from Extremadura, one of the poorest and most rural areas of Spain (26,2 people/km2), and yet even there you’d be hard pushed to find somewhere completely untouched: a dry stone wall marking a field boundary, a pylon, a track leading to a farm…

    Junkyard
    Member

    a very large number of economic migrants come here illegally and are not reflected in official statistics,

    WTF This is some sort of fear meme said by many but as you note you have absolutely no figures to back this up at all

    if they’ve managed to come here illegally who’s to say they can’t claim benefits

    As you are making the claim I believe the onus is on you to substantiate your claim rather – can you?
    You dont need to pass an identity check to illegally enter the country as you sneak in but you do to claim benefits – they are not the same at all.

    but trick the system that they were not immigrants ?

    if they could do this they would have no need to come here illegally as they could “trick the system” and they could live here legally

    If you come here illegally what you intend to do is work here illegally rather than risk drawing attention to your self to the agents of the state by fraudulently claiming benefits and attending govt offices on a regular basis

    Immigrants who arrived after 1999 were 45% less likely to receive state benefits or tax credits than UK natives in the period 2000-2011,

    konabunny
    Member

    This research doesn’t fully reflect the issues

    Did you read the methodology for the research?

    konabunny
    Member

    We should have proper border controls which track when people arrive and when they leave. If people fail to leave then they should be tracked down and deported

    Why is it any business of the UK to track and log when I, as a UK citizen, arrive and leave the UK?

    What are you willing to sacrifice to pay for the doubling of border guards at existing checkpoints? (Now you have to check everyone out as well as in). And what are you willing to sacrifice to pay for a chain of border guards along the unguarded, often unsignposted land borders between the UK and Ireland, and the UK and the (imminent) Republic of Scotland? 😆

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    Quite a bit of coastline too, your roving coastline border guards will cost a few pence.

    Premier Icon jambalaya
    Subscriber

    do you have any evidence to back this up?

    @Yunki, thousands of student visas issued to students who arrive in the country but never turn up to college for one

    Look at all the illegal accommodation built in back gardens full of people working here illegally, have you seen the ariel photos ?

    Why is it any business of the UK to track and log when I, as a UK citizen, arrive and leave the UK?

    @konabunny I didn’t say it should be for UK passport holders (I personally would’t have an issue). There are many countries around the world which do this for visitors, the US for one.

    The fact is you can come to the UK as a tourist, so no right to work, and you can stay here as long as you want and work illegally. The Boarder Control have no idea if you left or not.

    yunki
    Member

    Yeah, I think when I said evidence, I was looking for something a bit more concrete than a story you heard in the pub, or sensationalist headlines from right wing newspapers 😆

    grum
    Member

    Did you read the methodology for the research?

    You can prove anything with facts.

    cybicle
    Member

    do something to change our own blood into hard working folk

    WTF does this mean?

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    jambalaya – Member

    @Yunki, thousands of student visas issued to students who arrive in the country but never turn up to college for one

    Which is a trivial number. Entering the UK isn’t hard to do, working within the UK illegally also isn’t that hard if you know people, but claiming benefits in the UK without entitlement, not so easy at all (student visas specifically restrict access to state funds, so you have to get into black methods rather than just working the system- whole different thing from abusing a student visa to work)

    Do you fancy putting a number on the cost? Is it a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the the billions of pounds we take in fees alone from legit foreign students? Yes. So be realistic and accept it as a trivial cost that allows us to make a colossal profit. Or, alternatively, demand even more restrictions on student visas which will put even more paying visitors off coming to the UK.

    Junkyard
    Member

    the illegal accommodation built in back gardens full of people working here illegally

    IDIOTS if they are here illegally why are they not claiming benefits

    Premier Icon mogrim
    Subscriber

    The Boarder Control have no idea if you left or not.

    Probably sleeping at their posts.

    ninfan
    Member

    Plenty of data here

    http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/economic_unit/docs/irregular-migrants-report.pdf

    rough estimate half to three quarters of a million irregulars in the UK

    (illegal immigrants, failed asylum seekers, visa overstayers and children of the above with no legal right to remain)

    5thElefant
    Member

    Perhaps amongst people who are very ‘money-motivated’.

    Not sure it’s money as such. More self respect. Looking after your family and giving them the best you can. Money is a prerequisite to some extent but mobility is more important.

    And this – it’s very sad that life for some people is all about ‘competing’.

    I don’t even know where to start with that one. Life is competition.

    konabunny
    Member

    There are many countries around the world which do this for visitors, the US for one.

    The US doesn’t check people out. If you leave by air and the airline employee remembers your tag, it will get processed, but otherwise not, and not by land or sea.

    In any case, what difference does it make? A person who overstays a visa doesn’t have work rights anyway. You can log them as overstaying but that doesn’t stop them working illegally.

    And how do you make the system apply to non-UK citizens only? and do you realize you’d have to treat Irish citizens the same way as UK citizens under the 1920s treaty? And all EU citizens the same under the more modern treaties?

    grum
    Member

    I don’t even know where to start with that one. Life is competition.

    Again, what a terribly sad world view. I run a business and I am perfectly happy ‘competing’ in that environment but the idea that everything in life should revolve around it is just pathetic.

    Not sure it’s money as such. More self respect. Looking after your family and giving them the best you can.

    You mean ‘status’ – might as well come out and say it.

    5thElefant
    Member

    I run a business and I am perfectly happy ‘competing’ in that environment but the idea that everything in life should revolve around it is just pathetic.

    You can’t separate work from life. Work is what underpins your whole life.

    You mean ‘status’ – might as well come out and say it.

    No, I don’t mean status at all. Status is tied into a lack of mobility.

    I doubt Polish academics and engineers who came here and became cleaners did it for status. They did it to give their families opportunities.

    yunki
    Member

    Jesus Christ.. I call troll or fruitcake

    grum
    Member

    You can’t separate work from life. Work is what underpins your whole life.

    When you go on holiday, are you still ‘competing’?

    There’s a lot of BS talked about people doing stuff for their families’ sake – best thing most people can do for their family is raise them not to be grasping and materialistic and spend some quality time with them – not spend every evening and weekend at work so they can afford a shinier car.

    5thElefant
    Member

    When you go on holiday, are you still ‘competing’?

    Where did the money for the holiday come from ?

    There’s a lot of BS talked about people doing stuff for their families’ sake – best thing most people can do for their family is raise them not to be grasping and materialistic and spend some quality time with them – not spend every evenin and weekend at work so they can afford a shinier car.

    You think the Poles and Indians that have moved here to work have come so they can have a shiny car?

    I think it’s a bit deeper than that.

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