I don’t actually know what “post-truth” is supposed to mean.

(And that’s a fact.)

Thanks brooess for confirming my suspicion that I am emotionally healthy.

Reading the politics threads… Is STW now a post-truth forum?

Not if you’re not a blinkered, gullible prat or someone with an agenda to push no matter what the context.

dannyh – Member
Not if you’re not a blinkered, gullible prat or someone with an agenda to push no matter what the context.

And there’s the rub. Why would STW be different to the rest of society (apparently)?

Cougar.

The Oxford Dictionaries Word of the Year 2016 is post-truth – an adjective defined as ‘relating to or denoting circumstances in which objective facts are less influential in shaping public opinion than appeals to emotion and personal belief’.

And there’s the rub. Why would STW be different to the rest of society (apparently)?

And that’s the depressing bit. The nasty pieces of work who appealed the worst parts of people’s character in the Brexit and US votes only succeeded because that latent, insular, petty, nasty, toxic tendency is there in so many people in the first place.

It’s quite similar to some of those psychological experiments when apparently nice, considerate people are observed stealing or taking advantage of others when they think no one is looking or they’ll get away with it. A base human motive and one that manipulative people find it very easy to exploit. Blackmail works in a very similar way.

The nasty pieces of work who appealed the worst parts of people’s character in the Brexit and US votes only succeeded because that latent, insular, petty, nasty, toxic tendency is there in so many people in the first place.

An example of “I disagree so lets just label you something”, sadly very typical of many of the political threads here and elsewhere.

An example of “I disagree so lets just label you something”, sadly very typical of many of the political threads here and elsewhere.

I bet that the people who voted remain would have been more willing (and/or able) to enunciate their reason for doing so in front of a stranger, though. Especially if the stranger was non-white.

Deep down, stewartc, you know this is true.

I bet that the people who voted remain would have been more willing (and/or able) to enunciate their reason for doing so in front of a stranger, though. Especially if the stranger was non-white

Trust me, living and travelling throughout in Asia for work I have had to explain this and a host of other western political issues to many people of different hues despite having no real interest or concerns about most of them.
I start by not simply paint-brushing whole swathes of people as ignoramuses, racists or snowflakes and try to understand all sides arguments then go from there and explain the best I can.

We all have certain political leanings (I know I often change my opinion on issues when presented with new facts or personal experiences) but to simply caste them as left or right, right or wrong is absurd, its all very grey around the edges.

“The Oxford Dictionaries Word of the Year 2016 is post-truth – an adjective defined as ‘relating to or denoting circumstances in which objective facts are less influential in shaping public opinion than appeals to emotion and personal belief’.”

In which case were in the least post truth time ever thanks to the ability to use the web to fact check in seconds.

In which case were in the least post truth time ever thanks to the ability to use the web to fact check in seconds.

You would think so…
Shame most people don’t really get source bias, or who is trutable and independant these days. Stories with likes and up votes go to the top of the search and just the phrasing of a question can take you somewhere completely differnt. Searching Do vaccines cause x,y,z etc will lead you into a different place to vaccine side effects.

As is being shown all you need is some media power and repitition to keep a lie alive

My biggest concern is the infiltration of this forum by blatant professional political agents such as chewkw and Jambalaya.

Anyone ever met them in real life?

STW, the forum where the truth is regarded as trolling.

In which case were in the least post truth time ever thanks to the ability to use the web to fact check in seconds.

I can show you literally hundreds of “facts” on the web that prove absolutely that the world is flat.

The great power of the web is the democratisation of data. It’s easier than ever before to get your views published where billions of people can see them.

That’s also one of its biggest problems. And it is something I think the world is still adjusting to.

@brooess –

two being avoid putting Sudocrem on the cat

😯 Please do explain!

Famous forum thread bodgy:
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/my-daughter-has-coated-cat-with-sudocrem-what-to-do

And more sadly:
http://singletrackworld.com/2016/09/sudocrem-cat-we-salute-you/ 🙁

objective facts are less influential in shaping public opinion than appeals to emotion and personal belief

This was very evident when I watched BBC The Big Questions yesterday.

There were lots of people making arguments backed by statistics and evidence, and a few loud people appealing to emotion and feeling.

The people with evidence were all very liberal/progressive, while the more authoritarian people were appealing to emotion. As we know, reality has a liberal bias.

Indeed. There was one of the Presidential races a while back – I want to say Bob Dole vs Clinton, could be misremembering but let’s roll with it – where Bob tried honesty as a campaign strategy and refused to indulge in the character assassinations / smear campaigns employed by his rival. He got mullered. Never is “nice guys finish last” truer than politics.

There were lots of people making arguments backed by statistics and evidence, and a few loud people appealing to emotion and feeling.

The people with evidence were all very liberal/progressive, while the more authoritarian people were appealing to emotion. As we know, reality has a liberal bias.

I find the people I agree with have the stronger arguments too.

On a forum where a significant amount of people still believe steel is the best material for bike frames, then I think it is fair to say STW invented post-truth 😆

TBH I just the internet isn’t a great way of discussing things far better in person, nuances just get lost on the net.

I find the people I agree with have the stronger arguments too.

It’s difficult to remove my biases but the people I disagreed with kept saying things like “oh, you can make statistics say anything. It’s common sense that x is true” after the people I agreed with had said “the evidence from study a in country b showed the effect c“.

Feel free to watch the programme and see if you agree: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08c44z7

Of course, there may be loads of people who think feminism is bad, prisons should be more horrible and religion should absolutely play a part in politics for all kinds of logical, rational evidence-based reasons, but the TV show didn’t include them because they knew it’d make better TV.

Feel free to watch the programme and see if you agree: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08c44z7

I watch a couple of hours of TV a week, there is not a chance I would watch that rubbish.

I watch a couple of hours of TV a week, there is not a chance I would watch that rubbish.

😀
Sublime. We could just end the thread here and return to our trenches now.

Trust me, living and travelling throughout in Asia for work I have had to explain this and a host of other western political issues to many people of different hues despite having no real interest or concerns about most of them.
I start by not simply paint-brushing whole swathes of people as ignoramuses, racists or snowflakes and try to understand all sides arguments then go from there and explain the best I can.

We all have certain political leanings (I know I often change my opinion on issues when presented with new facts or personal experiences) but to simply caste them as left or right, right or wrong is absurd, its all very grey around the edges.

Maybe you are an exception. Do you think a greater proportion of leave or remain voters would be comfortable explaining their true motivations to someone non-white or maybe Polish? And yes, obviously there will be leave voters amongst all races, but what do you think the vote proportions looked like amongst minority populations?

Normally I don’t really like Billy Bragg as he is a curmudgeonly moaner who dogmatically pushes an agenda no matter what the context, but he was bang on when he said that not everyone voting leave was a racist, but all the racists voted leave.

Anyway, I’ve had enough of this now. I appreciate that you don’t like being tarred with a broad brush, but answer the questions above honestly, then consider what the leave vote really represented for a large proportion of those who did vote leave.

Sublime. We could just end the thread here and return to our trenches now.

I know the people who make it too!

@jonba; love your comment about ‘tedious big hitters’ on politics threads – some of the posts are truly tedious but ‘big hitters’? Pffffffffffff

Time for me to go and sort the facts from the alternative facts…………..

I thought he said 5hitters.

@oldtalent: that reminds me – eye test is overdue……..

“I find the people I agree with have the stronger arguments too.”

Me too, that’s how I can be sure my opinions are always right. 😀

but answer the questions above honestly

I can only answer from experience, and not living in the UK but entitled to vote I opted not to as I just thought it unfair that I could make a decision that would have no real long term affect on me. I would say the people I know who voted Leave did so for two main reason, a wish for controlled immigration and a lack of trust in aa centralized European government.

Whether this makes them raging rascists is more about your politics than theirs though both subjects are classic actual reality v perception subject amtter.

There are only 3 reasons for voting out
1) xenophobia ( or its nastier cousin racism)
2) believing the lies of the right wing press about europe
3) wanting to go back to some mythical 50s that never really existed.

All arguments for leaving the EU can be traced to those 3 things.

Freedom of movement enriches the country both financially and culturally – remember almost all of us are descended from immigrants

the right wing press is owned by people who hate the EU because it acts as a brake on their unfettered capitalism so they relentlessly pump out false propaganda to discredit it

the rose tinted glasses many folk view the past thru combined with the two things above leads folk to think that turningback the clock will make their lives better.

The result – an act of national self harm that is unprecedented and incredibly destructive and divisive

@tjagain

There’s a fourth, a very ‘human character trait’ reason..
4) To spite people like yourself

You may not realize it but your (and others) grandstanding and admonishing of people who may think differently probably made more people vote Leave than any Daily Mail or UKIP publication.

Never underestimate human beings ability to be self destructive in the face of reason if they feel they are being confronted and belittled for their beliefs.

I mean, people still ride 26er’s!

stewart – nope – don’t believe that at all.

Read the threads in here, plenty were going to vote out to get rid of call me Dave, plenty of people voting for a lot of stupid reasons thinking it was a protest/talent show

I mean, people still ride 26er’s!

I still have a Raleigh Twenty. Just because someone once laughed at my small hands wheels.

There are only 3 reasons for voting out
1) xenophobia ( or its nastier cousin racism)
2) believing the lies of the right wing press about europe
3) wanting to go back to some mythical 50s that never really existed.

All arguments for leaving the EU can be traced to those 3 things.

@tjagain

There’s a fourth, a very ‘human character trait’ reason..
4) To spite people like yourself

You may not realize it but your (and others) grandstanding and admonishing of people who may think differently probably made more people vote Leave than any Daily Mail or UKIP publication.

tjagain – Member
stewart – nope – don’t believe that at all.

Because of confirmation bias, you’re so utterly convinced of your own bloody self-righteousness, it’s impossible for you to imagine that anyone could disagree who isn’t a raging fascist.
Stewartc is absolutely correct, and you are absolutely wrong.

With all due respect that is complete nonsense and rather offensive.

Fascinating how many people are saying they don’t like and avoid political threads on here. Stewarttc sums it up well. There will be more to come too.

believing the lies of the right wing press

Because it is absolutely impossible to have had an experience different to your own and come up with a different viewpoint…

He’s right though.

1) A lot of people voted the way they did because foreigners, “swarms of migrants” and all that.

2) Murdoch is on record saying something akin to how the UK government does what he tells them and the EU does not. They’ve got a vested interest in us leaving the EU, and if you believe everything – hell, anything – the likes of the Express splashes across its front page on a daily basis then you’re being played, pure and simple.

3) And I’ve said before, nostalgia played a part too. Older voters longing for half-remembered “better times” where everyone knew everyone and you could leave your door unlocked. Jumpers for goalposts.

Stewart’s point about it being a protest vote is equally valid too though, of course. There were plenty of people who voted leave for variations on “this isn’t working, let’s try something different.”