Just wondering like…

Which posts are the truth?

Exactly.

I think…

Is everything not post truth now?

Or is that just a lie?

I have been avoiding the politics threads for a long while now. Last time I looked too much ranting, not enough basic courtesy (unless something has changed?).

facts are so last decade

Haven’t opinions largely been “post truth” for eternity? The only discipline that doesn’t seem to be led by “opinion”, and therefore emotion, is science, and even only trained scientists know the full details behind that.

Non-evidence-based discussions always involve an element of emotional bias. I remember studying American Studies for my first degree and part of the paper writing process was sorting through the “opinions” to reach the bare fact, from which you make your own interpretation.

What does make it harder now is the amount of spin, meaning very few people actually know the “truth”.

What does make it harder now is the amount of spin, meaning very few people actually know the “truth”.

There are plenty of facts available, in fact the EU thread had loads about just people didn’t like them. Now people are cheering the misuse of information as a “ends justify the means” approach.
It’s something we can all help with in life and call BS very quickly.

Which posts are the truth?

Which ones aren’t?

We are post post-truth now. The term “fake news” has been stolen by the right as a label for things that *are* true like man made climate change etc..

Liberal Snowflakes

you can’t handle beetroot

I make a point of avoiding politics threads in general, I’m pretty certain they’d at least as bad as elsewhere when subjected to that special STW effect.

TBH, it’s only the fact that overview opens by default on logon that reminds me they even exist…

Is everything not post truth now?

Or is that just a lie?

I’m not sure what it all means. Buzz-words and arseholes are nothing new. There just seem to be more of both of late. I’m assuming it’s mostly a UK/US thing? Brexit + Trump. ‘Brump’ <—- There’s a new portmanteau wot I made up. Are you feeling brumpy now? I think everyone’s feeling a bit brumpy.

The cake was a lie and that’s the truth

I studied political communication for my Masters degree and up until last year worked in a university communication studies department. Fake news has always been there (until recently it used to be called ‘propaganda’). Information is power, as they say. Read between the lines and ask yourself, who benefits from a paricular take on things. All common sense.

^ The media always benefit. Like a brewery, it’s a win-win game as people drink both when depressed and when happy. Happy news, sad news. Propaganda is still ‘just news’ to the willing recipient.

Views per channel are often proportionate to the amount of outrage generated and stereotypes confirmed.

Outrage and confirmation bias are currency in such an environment. The media and politicians both benefit. And whoever else is in bed with them.

while we are all perhaps guilty of fitting the facts to our opinions on the political threads on here the convolutions the rightwingers go thru to try to show their views are right are ridiculous and often simply factually wrong.

The cake was a lie and that’s the truth

I’m still alive.

This place is interesting in that it does force some people out of a bubble. I came for the cycling but there are all walks of life. That said the politics threads on here are dominated by a handful of tedious big hitters so there is rarely any proper debate.

Any debate gets out of hand when it’s on here.

“Any debate gets out of hand when it’s on here.”

No it doesn’t.

I came for an argument not contradiction.

Makes you think….

I make a point of always trying to provide evidence and links to my sources.

Anything I post is obviously still just opinion based on my interpretation of those sources, and is subject to Dunning-Kruger like everyone else.

But yes it is irksome when it is countered by someone half-quoting something they “remember reading somewhere” with figures pulled out of thin air.

Or the more common approach of just ignoring a post that makes it obvious they were talking nonsense. And then either changing the subject or just repeating that nonsense a few posts later.

What’s that old phrase… “truth is in the eye of the beholder”? Something along those lines anyway 😆

#jambafact ?

‘Falsehood flies, and the Truth comes limping after it; so that when Men come to be undeceiv’d, it is too late; the Jest is over, and the Tale has had its Effect…’

– Jonathan Swift

what GrahamS said

we can a;l have opinion but some folk want to have opinions on facts and then just ignore the evidence when folk present the facts that show that what they said was BS

Its strange how folk say things they know are not true

Essentially we have entered a world where say Boris said things he neither believed and he knew were not true in order to win a vote – its a win at any costs mentality and forget principles or truths

We have passed from the land of spin and a vision into a land where emotive empty rhetoric – that those saying know is BS- is what matters.
there are no details to the aspiration

Save the NHS vote out or anything Trump says being obvious examples or “regain control” – “make america great again” – sounds brilliant and means anything to anyone

Its seems the way to win is to promise the world to voters and damn the facts of your position
Worse still I think most of them saying it know its lies as Trump said ” I won didn’t I”

Nothing else matters not truth nor facts nor integrity nor principle

not enough basic courtesy

2 of the largest threads are EU referendum and Trump (both post truth fuelled events) with a lot os the supporters of either both so embroiled they don’t even realising they are making stuff up (even though people keep telling them)

Either that or they are just trolls who are very, very determined.

Often find that those who struggle with the truth the most are also the ones who hide behind accusing others of being factually wrong. THAT is ridiculous.

.. the supporters of either both so embroiled they don’t even realising they are making stuff up..

True, but I think often other people’s viewpoints are so far from your own that it is really difficult to accept how they interpret the same truths.

A lot of the posts on those threads are the diametric opposite of my opinion, but bursting that bubble is also what makes them so interesting, (when it doesn’t get lost in name calling)

“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” — George Orwell

It’s always been like this. Autocrats have always used propaganda to influence an ignorant public to suit their own agenda. Hitler knew it, Chairman Mao knew it, Stalin knew it, Erdogan knows it… And people who lead their lives full of fear have always been prey to propaganda and political dogma – the Daily Mail’s and UK tabloids have known this for the entirety of their existence. History has always been written by the victor.

My parents both had pretty traumatic childhoods and are very frightened people as a result, and they’ve always been very challenged by anything which contradicted their rather narrow worldview – but they’re no worse now than they were in the 80’s really… except with Brexit they’ve been able to impose their fear on all of us rather than just their own family…

On a positive note, I have hope. Social media and the internet and the worldwideweb were all developed on a philosophy of collaboration and of sharing the power, rather than concentrating it. I think the reason everything feels so tough now is that
a) autocrats realise they can’t control what the people hear and discuss amongst themselves – which terrifies them (interesting that my parents refuse point blank to use the internet) and
b) we, the people, have had the wool pulled from our eyes. It’s not that the truth is being manipulated any more than it used to be, more that we’ve become horribly aware how manipulated our news channnels are – which has come as a bit of a shock.

The question we need to ask ourselves is which way will it go now…. there’s a risk that the autocrats will subvert the internet enough that we’ll lose faith in it, and then they’ve won. Certainly with current politics it looks like the autocrats are winnning, hence this thread. Liberals tend not to fight as hard as Extremists as by definition we’re more emotionally healthy and try and find peace rather than conflict…

Personally I think STW is great – I’ve learnt all sorts from it over the years. One being to avoid Picolax, two being avoid putting Sudocrem on the cat and three, the utter infallibility of the Dunning Kruger effect 🙂

Some people have different views but they can also use facts to support them

Take capitalism its true that it has dragged nations out of poverty but its true that it leads to massively disproportionate things like 8 people being worth 50% of the population

It just depends on whether you think this is fair and whether the only way to end poverty is through capitalism.

Often find that those who struggle with the truth the most are also the ones who hide behind accusing others of being factually wrong. THAT is ridiculous.

That is indeed a ridiculous point

Many of us are intransient in our views. However almost no one is unable to use facts or gets them wrong whilst making their point; what we have is conflicting facts and opinions on the issue, not wrong facts.

Essentially you are arrogantly accusing anyone who disagrees with you of struggling with the truth, that is not true unless you have become infallible.

As another example one nation tories think capitalism can be used to improve things for everyone where as I think you need the state to intervene as capitalism is inherently iniquitous so I am more left wing.
There are merits to each view [ and actual facts to support each view and to negate it] and just because someone has reached a different conclusion from me I dont think they are all struggling with the truth – is this the new STW way of accusing folk of being liars ?- I just think we have different views.
I may respect/agree or not with the view but i wouldn’t ever accuse them of just making things up.

We only have one poster who consistently does this and even you accuse him of that and have had to repeat questions endlessly to counter his “point” so you are just as guilty as those you wish to accuse.

Take capitalism its true that it has dragged nations out of poverty but its true that it leads to massively disproportionate things like 8 people being worth 50% of the population

Well done for posting a classic post-truth fact. Illustrates the points perfectly.

Face palm picture goes here
Have you considered negating the point rather than just doing that?

TBH its so vague and imprecise a dig I am not sure which of those two facts you think is untrue or “post truth”.

Post truth should not be misused for when you just disagree with someone its for when someone says something something blatantly at odds with the facts like the side of a Brexit bus otherwise its just petty name calling by folk with buzzwords and no insight or facts.
Feel free to disagree with me but you are going to have to both say which bit and then use facts to justify your objection

😉

I did, among others, on the recent thread – toddle off and look there. Always disappointing to discover your high horse is a Shetland pony.

@ THM You dont actually disagree with the facts i posted or he quoted do you and yet still that you charming wee thing.

Glad my attempt at balance has been so well recieved by the RW

Is it any wonder we just sit in trenches and throw verbal hand grenades?

@ mefty – I am sure you could have just said/proved which of them were wrong in just as few words as that

What do you disagree with and why?
I guess my fatal flaw was I assumed you had reasons and facts rather than just character that means you had to just vent your spleen and hurl abuse.

SO anyone any ideas why we dont try and have grown up debates?

Its working here for me and no mistake the outburst of rational debate is truly heartwarming

Look at the data, that study defines wealth on a snapshot basis. The effect is that the poorest people in the world according to it are recently graduated MBA and Medical students in the US because of their college debt. No one in their right mind thinks these people are “poor” because they have got fantastic earnings prospects, but that is the “fact” of the data. That’s not a fact, its a rubbish definition.

The problem is too few realise how their few of their beliefs are based facts, they mistake widely held beliefs to be facts – the level of acceptance doesn’t change the nature of what you are looking at. So you get people shouting Post-truth, because someone disagrees with the conventional wisdom that they come across, which they mistake for a fact and on it goes.