Complete random thought / brainwave...
New drivers doing their test should have to do a commute into a busy city by bike to pass the driving test.
Maybe this would help car drivers see the world from our side of the street.
Thoughts?
Bike Forum
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Random idea, car drivers should be forced to do a commute to pass the test?
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Posted 1 year ago #
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impracticle & unworkable and possibly illegal but a nice idea. I believe that the test should involve a bit more empathy for other road users.
Posted 1 year ago # -
How about making them do it in a van, a motorbike and a HGV to teach them about blindspots?
How about licences and tests for cyclists?
How about a minimum fitness test before you can cycle to get rid of the slow ones?
(you see where I'm going with this)
Posted 1 year ago # -
I've often thought that you have to do, say, 6 months on a bike, then 6 months on a 50cc, then 6 months on a 125cc then either go for a big m/bike or car license and then HGV. If you lose your license in one class you got back "down a class" for a year before re-applying. Also might reinforce the idea that driving is a privelige earned, not a right.
Of course, completely unworkable, but might give everyone on the road some empathy with everyone else.
Posted 1 year ago # -
maybe do thing differently
Providing you can (no disability). Get a "bike licence/certificate" at 16. Proof of mileage insurance for a year then get a 125CC licence. Again proof of insurance and mileage and then allow to pass driving test (car or proper motorcycles)Posted 1 year ago # -
Can't quite see how it would be of any benefit.
It's a bit like adding motorway driving to the test. Fine for those in the SE but those in Scotland and Wales would struggle to get to a motorway.
The problem is not the mode of transport but the inconsiderate/thoughtlessness mindset of the user regardless of the mode of transport being used.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I did my m/cycle test 20 yrs after passing the car test. I thought I was a reasonable driver, but I learned an embarrassing amount - and not just about the bike specific bits... My thoughts at the time were:
a) everyone should have a compulsory refresher every 5yrs or retest every 10 - failure not necessarily resulting in disqualification as nerves might cause some mistakes. Say a fail results in an additional course to address the failure discrepency.
b) all drivers (unless physically unable) to have to do the m/cycle CBT as a minimum before registering for a car provisional. Not necessarily to learn bike handling, but as a pre-requisite to understanding other road users vulnerability.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I see where you're coming from but it's a fairly stupid, unworkable, fascist idea.
push bikes may be of massive importance in your life but not in everyones. Why not extend the idea and make people go for a walk before passing their test just to see what it's like for people who walk places, or drive buses, or ride motorbikes, etc.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Apart from the ones who look like power rangers and keep making motorcycle sized holes in the dry stone walls in the peak district most motorcyclists have to ride very defensively and have additional eyes fitted to spot all the likely hazards. I know this from experience.
Moving on a pushbike is much slower (on the open road) by comparison but you never forget to look at blind spots, people in parked cars, feet at the front of cars, where the road furniture is ... etc etc etc. You know the score.
Alternatively you can pass your test in a car purchased by mummy who wants to make sure her darlings are safe! Then plaster the windscreen with trash, phone, satnav etc etc so you's loose an elephant waiting at a zebra crossing (strange zoo theme here perhaps) behind the sat nav and go out and drive straight over that chap commuting home perfectly safely.
In short. Yes.
Gives me an idea for another thread ...
Posted 1 year ago # -
You could introduce some kind of PC based simulator which put you in the position of a cyclist and/or motorbike rider and ran through typical danger-area scenarios.
Posted 1 year ago # -
The problem is not the mode of transport but the inconsiderate/thoughtlessness mindset of the user regardless of the mode of transport being used.
In part, yes, but the number of times someones pulled out of a junction on me because they have no idea how to judge my speed on a bike is mind boggling - and also...
Not necessarily to learn bike handling, but as a pre-requisite to understanding other road users vulnerability.
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push bikes may be of massive importance in your life but not in everyones.
They should be equally important as everyone else on the road at the time - my perspective is irrelevant in that respect.
EDIT:
You could introduce some kind of PC based simulator which put you in the position of a cyclist and/or motorbike rider and ran through typical danger-area scenarios
But that's like playing poker without money - if there's no risk or consequence, it's just a game
Posted 1 year ago # -
Licence for big bike at 16 - minimum of 1,000ccs and 100bhp and 2 years on bike before car licence.
Guaranteed no numpties left alive to take car test.
Posted 1 year ago # -
The test should include a lot more. Like videos of car crashes, for a start. Not necessarily blood and guts, but showing what happens when people mess it up and how to avoid it.
It'd be passing on the experience of others.
Posted 1 year ago # -
see where you're coming from but it's a fairly stupid, unworkable, fascist idea
Stupid - The principle is far from stupid, given the standard of driving on our roads. You always get some idiots, but the general level of inattentiveness of most car drivers is truly shocking.
Unworkable - Quite probably right, although not necessarily so. I'm not familiar with current car driver training, but there could easily be some re-alignment to make the initial stages similar to m/cycle training. Get new drivers to attend a one day CBT before they go out on the road. Where on the m/cycle CBT there is a carpark bike handling session, give them a class room session and get them out on a bike - pedal or 125 doesn't matter (althoguh 125 would obviously need the m/cycle handling bit...)
As it stands at the moment any 17 year old can jump in his / her parents car and go for a (supervised) drive with no training at all - and worse, could go all the way through to their test without having had any proper training.
Fascist - Well if denying inexperienced drivers the right to go out on the roads without proper training is fascist, then so be it.... I went to Norway as a student in 1988, and even then they had a very strict three part driving test - college course plus exam (ie several months plus exam, not just a turn up on the day multi-choice) before they could go near a car, followed by practical training / test, followed by winter / ice training and test.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I think everyone should walk around with an iPod in - randomly crossing the road without looking
That'll learn them what it's like to be a brain dead student
Posted 1 year ago # -
There should definitley be re-tests, I know of people who in the 70s just had to drive down a straight rd and stop at the end, congratulations you've passed.
Also new/better/more comprehensive testing comes out but theres still legions of fecktards already out on the roads.Introduce re-tests, say every 10 years.
Keep improving the tests.
Include some other road user empathy stuff - dunno how, the compulsory bike thing is never gonna happen, maybe motorbike before car, dunno tho.Posted 1 year ago # -
rkk01 - interesting re Norway - what are their crash statistics like?
Posted 1 year ago # -
interesting re Norway - what are their crash statistics like?
I don't know. The way I was told it at the time (over 20 yrs ago now :-() was that road fatalities were pretty shocking and that's why a very rigorous regime was brought in.
I believe that there were also issue with alcohol wrapped up in their road fatality stats - the Norwegians I met couldn't put a lid back on a bottle (by tradition)
ETA - ohh and they have some fairly challenging roads / conditions compared to us - although we have more traffic....)
Posted 1 year ago # -
And I was just suggesting as an idea to reduce cycling deaths on the roads. Sigh.
(shrug shoulders and considers emigrating)
Posted 1 year ago # -
Would you considder spending 6 months in a wheelchair in order to gain empathy for wheelchair users when your a pedestrian?
Posted 1 year ago # -
I'm sure for, most people, spending time in a wheelchair isn't a privelige that they want to earn, or aspire to... so that's not really comparing apples-with-apples is it.
Posted 1 year ago # -
"it's a fairly stupid, unworkable, fascist idea"
Yeah I like it, and while we are at it they should be sat on a horse then have idiots drive cars past at full speed just so next time they might actually slow down when they see a horse.
Posted 1 year ago # -
ti_pin_man - Member
And I was just suggesting as an idea to reduce cycling deaths on the roads. Sigh.(shrug shoulders and considers emigrating)
Don't be so quick to emigrate Joe, I'm not so sure the standard of driving in many other countries is any better, I know some have a better attitude towards cycling but most of the time I have had near misses its been drivers daydreaming not the aggressive ones?
Posted 1 year ago # -
No, and neither do peple aspire to ride a bike (in this argument you assume they aspire to drive a car and the time on a bike should be part of the proces to reach that aspiration).
So should you be forced to spend 6 months in a wheelchair before being allowed to walk down the street in order to gain empathy for a minority?
So should you be forced to spend 6 months on a bike before being allowed to drive down the street in order to gain empathy for a minority?
Or is it just that that would affect your day to day life so you dont want it?
Posted 1 year ago # -
They should add more theory, courtesy and observations.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I agree, new drivers should have to ride a bike to learn about keeping away from cyclist, Plus they should also ride in an HGV so they understand the size and issues these drivers have on the road and give them more time and space.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Of course, the counter argument here to be used by Dail Mail readers/the motoring lobby is that all cyclists should have to take the Cycling Proficiency Test and have insurance before being allowed on a road...
Posted 1 year ago # -
I give up. It was only the general principal I was thinking about. I thought it was a good idea. I didn't really mean to ask how it would be in implemented. Just the concept. To have it labelled as facist really shocked me tbh. I appreciated everybodies input I'll forget about it and continue to commute the 15 miles in rush hour traffic avoiding death, next time I'll keep my gob shut. No emmigration, been there tried that.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Don't take it personally ti_pin_man, it's been mentioned numerous times in the past but it IS kind of unworkable and is never going to be a popular idea with the rest of the public. Something definitley needs to be done tho. I did my test only a few years ago and "cyclists are a hazard" that was about all the bike related stuff you got.
Oh and ignore the flaming you got, remember most STW members are commited enthusiastic car drivers who also own a bike, rather than the other way round.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Yay! Good to know I'm not alone...
I've long bored all my friends with my idea that you need to have ridden a motorbike for 2 years before you can get a provisional car licence (Test - CBT. Test - full bike licence. Test - provisional car licence. Test - full car licence. Easy). And I'm a petrol-head who's never ridden a motorbike, not a pro-cycling zealot fascist.
Then again, my friends usually just look embarrassed and shart shuffling away from me!
Posted 1 year ago # -
ti_pin_man, what you say is actually highly desirable.
If you'd asked me before I'd done my CBT / DAC I would have been sceptical. Having done those (even as a regular cycle commuter) I was shocked into re-considering my own car driving behaviour.
As someone posted above, it's less about driver aggresion (which is shocking, but rare) and more about driver attention. I'd guess that as many as 1 in 10 drivers might actually be properly paying attention to what they are doing - but is probably far less than that.
On the motorbike I found that I was fully engaged, all of the time. Bike handling, engine / gears / clutch / braking, surface conditions, 3D spatial awareness, where the gaps are, etc, etc, etc.
OK, part of that was being a new rider, but the levels and continuity of concentration involved shocked me into realising that I just don't pay sufficient attention when driving a car - too isolated / cocooned in that comfortable, warm, toy laden cockpit.
The idea of getting car drivers out on two wheels (even for a day) is really to reinforce that they are so isolated from whats going on around them, the space other road users need and the vulnerability of other road users.
There is absolutely no reason at all (political or practical) why a form of CBT couldn't be introduced as part of obtaining your provisional car licence. Making prospective car drivers expereince the road from other users perspectives could easily and usefully be incorporated into a day's CBT course.
Nothing fascist or unworkable about it.
Posted 1 year ago # -
it's less about driver aggresion (which is shocking, but rare) and more about driver attention
I'd say driver over-confidence. People thinking it's okay to do stuff that is realyl dangerous. That could be change the CD, send a text, look at the planes, make that corner at 50, overtake in that gap etc etc.
Posted 1 year ago # -
don't take it personally it is, as i said earlier, a nice idea but probably unworkable.
I think its driver competence - a lot of the driving i see, when driving and cycling is just poor. I often wonder if these people have passed a test!!
I'd like to see 10 year re-tests.
also how much bad driving is down to stupidity?
some people are desperate to overtake the slow cyclist just to have to slam on their brakes for the stopped car 25m ahead etc etc.Posted 1 year ago # -
maybe do thing differently
Providing you can (no disability). Get a "bike licence/certificate" at 16. Proof of mileage insurance for a year then get a 125CC licence. Again proof of insurance and mileage and then allow to pass driving test (car or proper motorcycles)Nah, pointless, motorbikes/scooters are far far more dangerous than cars - difficult to justify.
I don't think a bike experience in the driving test would be illegal, but it would be difficult. Not everyone can ride a bike already, getting to the point where they were safe to take on the road would be a few sessions, it would be hard to justify again.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Nah, pointless, motorbikes/scooters are far far more dangerous than cars - difficult to justify.
Seems a sweeping statement, are you implying that they cause more crashes (per miles driven presumably?) than cars or are they just involved in more crashes? (possibly by feckless car drivers mowing into them)BTW I've no idea of the figures and not suggesting motorbikes are safer than cars.
Posted 1 year ago #
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