After the excellent advice regarding my ahem ‘friends’ downhill sports brassiere problem, I wondering if I can trouble the group further with advice on the above. My ‘friend’ has recently moved to a new house where he has two water bills, when once he had just the one. The charge depends on how much water is metered so if he reduced the input meter charge the charge for sewage will be even greater.

So the questions inevitably how much storage is necessary, should it be underground and what cost have folk experienced?
My er ‘friend’ is not much use to me alive when it comes to DIY stuff, so we would also require an installer, so any experiences would be appreciated.

I’m told this place is the fount of all knowledge..

Here’s hoping.

Retrofit will be a ball ache – you’ll be running a completely separate cold feed to the WC cisterns and possibly the washing machine. Unless you go down the expensive filtration and UV treatment, you won’t be getting potable water so no baths, showers from the rainwater, just flushes and a washing machine load.

It’s up to you to decide once you see the cost, if it will ever be worth it – you’re gonna need to put it underground so some civils and a decent plumber/sparked to get it installed.

I sold some of these to the big house builders a few years ago – as good as any other brand IMO! although that was 6 years ago. Things might have moved on.

http://www.balmoraltanksdirect.com/index.php/rainwater-harvesting-systems/rainwater-harvesting

Edit – should have added – storage and payback will depend of the occupancy of your friends house – couple and four kids will save loads more than a single bloke.

Why two bills?

. The charge depends on how much water is metered so if he reduced the input meter charge the charge for sewage will be even greater.

Do you mean the sewerage charge goes down with less water use?

What are you using the water for?

It’s usually pretty marginal if you need to treat the water

You are better off at looking at water efficient taps etc

The plan was to have some sort of system that did everything but one feed to the kitchen for drinking and cooking.

So all grey water uses as well as shower, washing, so the logic was, just pump rainwater into the system as it currently stands, but fit just one mains water feed to the kitchen sink. What would the problems be with that idea?

As smudger said, and Google ‘grey water systems’ for loads of info.

Main thing is you can’t really drink it without treatment, but it’s good for flushing the bog. I’ve always wondered why we need potable water for that. Grey systems should be part of all new build IMO.

We looked into it and the sums didn’t add up. Better to spend a bit less and reduce your usage. Low volume toilets, efficient washing machine and dishwasher, water butt for outside use. If you are doing a new build then maybe but you’d need a good reason for a retro fit.

matt_outandabout – Member
Why two bills?

It’s just the way it is here in this new place one charge for metered water, another even greater charge from the buggers who dispose of it into the surf breaks we like to use, a double whammy, we hate the water companies.

They work out how much to charge you by charging a percentage greater than your actual water use, it’s unbelievable but true, privatisation working for the community – not.

Having seperate bills for water and sewerage (usually via the same provider and bundled together) is normal surely? Not sure why reducing input would increase output though.

If you are looking at full rainwater harvesting and recycling, I’d say don’t. I’ve done life cycle costing for systems on commercial buildings and payback usually takes about 25 years. Its a lot of infrastructure for little benefit – you still need mains water supplies to toilets etc for flushing in case stored water dries up, so you are doubling up all the supply systems.

The infrastructure generally consists of a large underground tank, pumps, electric supply to pumps, pipework to outlet points (and installing these through your house). Plus divert pipes from downpipes, and filters. And overflow pipes from the tank back to drainage. You’ll need a big hole in your garden to get a tank large enough to be beneficial. Above ground tanks can be used, but obviously take a lot of space.

I don’t mean to be flippant, but get a water butt and water the garden / wash the bike from that. Effective and far more cost efficient!

You can’t use it for showers unless you want to be breathing a pretty ugly cocktail (potentially) of whatever bacteria is on your roof/growing in your tank.

Hmm, already have more water butts than you can shake the proverbial stick at.

Why do I have bacteria in my tank? Can I not buy some trick UV thing to stop that, it’s not rocket science, same as filtration, we drink from streams whilst riding, Only time we get sick is when it’s stormy and the water company use the short sea outfall for the worlds sewage and we surf, sail sup or whatever in it, so washing in our own supplied, stored and presumably treated stuff can be no worse.

Don’t agree with the payback argument, who asks wether buying a car will give payback, had exactly the same argument about using batteries with the solar, ignored it, buying it because we don’t want to give money to utility companies and do our planet saving bit.

Why do I have bacteria in my tank? Can I not buy some trick UV thing to stop that, it’s not rocket science, same as filtration, we drink from streams whilst riding, Only time we get sick is when it’s stormy and the water company use the short sea outfall for the worlds sewage and we surf, sail sup or whatever in it, so washing in our own supplied, stored and presumably treated stuff can be no worse.

There are bacteria everywhere – it is unavoidable! From a water perspective the main concerns are probably “coliform” type bugs, crypto/giardia, legionella and to a lesser extent pseudomonas etc. Crypto/giardia are probably unlikely in rain water. Coliforms are usually found in “waste matter” and its impossible for you to stop birds, mice, rats and other such creatures from contaminating the incoming water. You’ll keep the water in the tank cool which stops it growing too fast in situ, but on the roof and in the pipework in your house its almost impossible to stop it festering! Legionella is not considered a problem in drinking water, but is for showers (or anywhere else it would be sprayed around and the droplets could be inhaled). Showers don’t get hot enough to kill it. Pseudomonas doesn’t normally make healthy people sick, but it can infect skin follicles.

Bathrooms will be expected to have drinking quality water for brushing teeth. I expect dishwashers will also be expected to be fed with potable water only.

Your only solution to avoiding all of that is to treat the water. Treatment costs money. UV bulbs are both expensive to replace and to run, they will eat into the perceived saving of going off-grid quite a bit. Whilst its not rocket science, it is science and needs monitoring and maintenance to ensure it is working effectively. I think if you were planning to do this in Scotland (and I think possibly anywhere in the EU, as the Scottish regs are an implementation of an EU directive) as your source of potable (drinking) water, it would be considered a private water supply and you would be required to pay for the local authority to test it periodically!

I have a system in my house, currently decommissioned, aimed at flushing loos and washing clothes. Tank is about 4000 litres and built into loft space above the scullery(currently our kitchen). It was decommissioned before I bought the house, so I can’t tell you it would affect our other usage. Only simple grid and textile filters as far as I can tell, and the bottom of the tank is inches deep in dried sludge, a lot of which seems to be coal dust from the days when all the houses had multiple fires going.

My OH works for the largest filter manufacturer in the world and is one of the top specialists in europe on the nasties Poly mentioned.
Don’t just don’t bother unless you have access to the sort of filters she has.
We’re ok as we don’t pay for them but you really don’t want to know how much they cost just for a single one to go on the end of your tap – let alone to cover something the size you are talking about.

As an aside in Hants we have to pay two different companies for fresh and dirty water and yes – the dirty is a lot more than the fresh.
Southern Water are robbing bar stewards and will automatically add charges to your bill that you have to prove otherwise instead of it being their remit to prove you should pay it.

Don’t agree with the payback argument, who asks wether buying a car will give payback, had exactly the same argument about using batteries with the solar, ignored it, buying it because we don’t want to give money to utility companies and do our planet saving bit.

Ok, but once you start using pumps, your electricity consumption will go up, so I’d question the net environmental benefit. There are some good low tech solutions – a friend uses a large tank mounted on a platform collecting rainwater to feed his washing machine – all gravity fed. You could probably do something similar with a downstairs toilet.

When I built my house (converted barn) I designed the plumbing to be able to supply harvested rainwater to WC cisterns and washing machine.

Ultimately though, the hardware to deliver the supply (storage, pumping, pressurising, water reg approved mains automatic switchover etc) would be in the order of £2,500 for at best a £100 saving a year on my water bill.

However a low tech system of an IBD (container), Negative head pump and manually filling the storage from a hose pipe during periods of drought would cost around £200 or so, but I’d be forced to site the tank somewhere I’m not happy with.

In the end, I’ve gone with low volume flushing bogs, a low water use w/m, and instead I harvest 800 Litres of rainwater in £20 ea olive import barrels for watering the veg garden.

No experience of running domestic appliances and services but I have two 3300 litre tanks that fill from the shed roof. Used for Lawns, watering veg/fruit and washing bikes etc. I cant see a big problem re plumbing to run washing machine and toilets with a header tank in the roof.

Still not my area of expertise and if nothing else this thread has got me thinking.

Composting toilet and a solar shower in a shed in the garden?

It is southern water and they are robbing bastards as well as ultimately causing my last bout of illness, nice knowing I’m paying them to do it.

Thank you all for your help, there are lots of quite reasonable options on ebay, I just wanted to hear from folk who have been successful, locally we’re kind of pioneering this stuff, what with the battery powered house fed from the solar which unfortunately went live only recently as the dark months arrived, we are trying to invest money where the return a)saves the environment and b)reduces our exposure to the almost criminal utility companies.

The bacteria issue is clearly the biggest hurdle, if the water was screened and filtered prior to storage in an undergound tank, (no light) then re filtered and UV’d on demand, how does that sound? Our thoughts were big undergound tank in garden 5000litres+, then smaller tank in attic, with further UV.

Please don’t consider the expense for the moment, think of it as an expensive hobby, after all our bikes will cost more than this system. If it’s stupid money it probably won’t happen, but for the moment it’s the practicality and health risks that perhaps need more consideration than we’d previously given.

Then again we often swim in exactly what we’re worrying about, so why not shower, at least there won’t be big lumpy bits that you can feel when your skeg hits them.

you could fill a couple of buckets of water out of the water butt every day and use them to flush the loo manually?

OP, does your ‘friend’ have space for a septic tank/soakaway? You’ll pay no sewerage charges if you install one (purchase and installation charges will apply).

Have a really CLOSE look at your bill Blue – IF and and only iff your property meets everything can they bill you for all of it.
My house (ex&kids in it) I was able to force them to go back the full time we’d owned it as the land drains all of the rainwater to soakaways F&R as well as the driveway going to it too – oh AND the neighbours either side.
Cue me ensuring that those tow elements were removed from the bill.
Despite them stating they will only go back ONE year – I was able to show that they knew about it back in 2004 when the conveyancing was done due to a not on the public file by them after they’d checked the capacity of them.
Previous owner didn’t mention it so Southern promptly started charging us – we aren’t talking about a small amount either on an un-metered property.
Neighbours (well the nice one) were informed and got their £ back as well.
Robbing arses.
I strongly suggest you all check your bills for rainwater and surface drainage as if you have soakaways you are liable to pay it.

you could fill a couple of buckets of water out of the water butt every day and use them to flush the loo manually?

A good friend of ours did just this. She collected rainwater in a barrel, and used it to flush toilets and, IIRC, shower.

You can get cisterns now that are a sink – every time you wash your hands they top it up.

Ok, my responses were based on you complaining about the water bill, so I assumed you would want to know about the financial considerations.

As others and I have said, you CAN make it safe to wash and shower in but you will need to filter and UV treat it – there are loads of uv filter kits available so crack on, but be prepared for it to be an expensive hobby.

Well the bill from Southern Water in the first period we were here came to £260, this on top of a couple of £165.00 + for water supply from infinity or affinity whatever they’re called so yes that’s what started us looking given this is a bungalow with just us and our daughter living in it.

We’re battling with them, even citing the UN directive about the cost of fresh water and sewage disposal not supposedly being above a certain percentage of our income, which this was, not that it’s got us far, but we haven’t paid yet and haven’t been cut off.

Just about every rural home in NZ and OZ has an external watertank fed from the roof with a bit of mesh to keep the bugs out (back in the day anyway).
Dig a well/sink a bore?

Ha, it’s got a well, even has a covenant on it for something or other which doesn’t seem to have prevented previous occupiers building a convenient double man cave over the site.

So, I think the best route is to try a smaller initial system aimed at toilets and we’ll maybe go with that, thanks for all of your input.