The fact is that they’ve got what they wanted. Their caliphate. How does this pose a threat to us?

Think it’ll stop there?

This is where I part company with the Lefties, Its all-right to stand on higher ground looking down on folk with “lesser Morals” saying you shouldn’t have done that, or look at history, but no one did anything to stop what has happened happening.

Now the mess has to be contained. One way or the other.

And I wish we could learn lessons, but there’s far too much money to be made for any teachings from history.

I’m criticising it as its a completely pointless exercise, that going to cost us an absolute fortune in cash that we apparently haven’t got to pay for schools, hospitals or a welfare state, and will ultimately achieve absolutely nothing

Which bit of that are you having the problem comprehending?

On the contrary, it seems to me that while you’re complaining about schools, welfare state, tax breaks, the conservatives, etc and how we’re wasting money. That you’re simultaneously failing to comprehend the Human cost of sending soldiers.

Others are pointing out that lives are at stake, were we to allow IS to continue unchallenged.
Personally, I value a life over the cost of a missile used to stop an IS fighter who will otherwise go onto kill a taxi driver, behead someone in an orange jump suit, murder people of other faiths, aid workers, etc, etc.
I must be crap with money, sorry.
Chill.

They targetted “20-30 jihadists? Blimey! Thats me told eh? Up to 30 beardy blokes AND a Toyota?

Do we know if they hit any of the baddies? If so, I bet thats changed the balance of power in the region pretty significantly, eh? And we can all sleep safely in our beds tonight.

1 aircraft – 1 weapon.

The RAF have a tiny presence there, seems to be mainly a political gesture.

The US have flown hundreds of sorties. If they can hit several targets each day and take out the heavy weapons, tanks etc then it will change the balance of power.

The aircraft can also give a massive tactical advantage during particular engagements as ISIS have no air power.

Also, as was said before, a lot of the cost is already accounted for.

What would you prefer we do, nothing?

We do nothing in plenty of other conflicts, including ones where civilians are slaughtered.

Why is this one so special?

Jambalaya… again… I know theres terrorist threat. We all do. Nobody is disputing this. What I’m asking you, and which you have again failed to answer, is how blowing up the odd pick up truck, at enormous expense, is going to keep us all safer from terrorism back here. Because I can’t see how it conceivably can, at all. In fact, quite the reverse

Feel free to enlighten me though

@binners Firstly I will say I am enjoying your contributions, beardy blokes and Toyotas .. it sounds like a jihadist version of Into the Wild

We are going to blow up more than the odd pickup truck. The action is going to weaken ISIS and allow the ground forces to recapture territory and drive ISIS back. We will remain at risk from isolated attacks here in the UK but the broader more significant threat from ISIS can and will be defeated. We tried the sit back and do nothing (post the defeat in the Commons last year) and that hasn’t worked out has it ? We now know that when that vote was taken the hostages had already been taken.

We do nothing in plenty of other conflicts, including ones where civilians are slaughtered.

Why is this one so special?
Because of its scale and direct threat to us. Because we realise that we did’t do enough in Rwanda, Kosovo etc ?

What would you prefer we do, nothing?

Yes. Whats so hard to understand about that? Thats exactly what we should be doing. Nothing. Its none of our business. Who made us the world police? Its a regional conflict, a sectarian war, some tribal shit, a civil war, and a proxy war being fought by all kinds of unsavoury regional powers, all rolled into one. Its a massively complicated situation, and we’re looking for our typically simplistic Hollywood Good Guys/Bad Guys narrative. Well it doesn’t exist!

Have we learnt nothing? Every time we’ve got involved, cluelessly wading in, like we’re doing again now, its ended up as an absolute shambolic disaster, thats ultimately made things ten times worse. This will be exactly the same.

We should be staying completely out of it. Arming the Kurds? Fine. Supplying humanitarian aid? Great! Getting involved in another open-ended messy war in the middle east? no thanks.

jambalaya – Member

We are going to blow up more than the odd pickup truck. The action is going to weaken ISIS and allow the ground forces to recapture territory and drive ISIS back.

Like the Shia militias on the ground, some of whom who have said

“When I withdraw my forces now the Sunnis will come back and they will become an incubator for Isis again,” said one fighter. “When I liberate an area from Isis why do I have to give it back to them? Either I erase it or settle Shia in it.”

“If it’s for me I will start cleansing Baghdad from today,” added another fighter. “We have not started sectarian war, we are just trying to secure our areas, but if the sectarian days come back then I am sure it will be won by us.”

Will we then bomb them?

Like I said… all the sabre-rattlers are looking for easy, simplistic solutions to complex problems. Its never going to work. Let them get on with it, or bomb the whole region

Barack Obama has now bombed seven largely Muslim countries, in each case citing a moral imperative. The result, as you can see in Libya, Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan,Yemen, Somalia and Syria, has been the eradication of jihadi groups, of conflict, chaos, murder, oppression and torture. Evil has been driven from the face of the Earth by the destroying angels of the west.

When are we actually going to learn?

Its a regional conflict
No, it’s not, they murder foreign hostages and directly address the west in their threats.
Go hide in your hole, if you wish. Allow this evil to prevail. But remember one thing. They’ll get to you, eventually.

We should be staying completely out of it. Arming the Kurds? Fine. Supplying humanitarian aid? Great! Getting involved in another open-ended messy war in the middle east? no thanks.
Thank you, we now understand your position. I’d expect that you have nothing more to add now then.

Why is this one so special?
It’s special, if you can’t see that, nothing I post here will allow you to see it.
You of all people, should know that.

Hiding in holes? Allowing evil to prevail? Getting to us all eventually?

Jesus H Corbett. You’re actually completely unhinged, aren’t you?

Jesus H Corbett. You’re actually completely unhinged, aren’t you?
So 7/7 didn’t happen then.
Binners. Give it a rest.

I just find it amazing how disproportionately paranoid delusional people think the threat to us is, compared to the actual obvious reality.

7/7 was one incident. Without being flippant, how many people have died on the British mainland since the ‘War on Terror’, and the start of our middle eastern crusades? As a result of Jihad? Compared to, say, IRA terrorism in the 70’s and 80’s, or the amount that die on the roads every week? Its just not significant at all. Its probably the same amount of people who have died in accidents involving being crushed by falling grand piano’s or using Acme rocket powered roller skates.

ISIS does not pose a threat to us. Or our ‘way of life’. Whatever that is. Its all just scaremongering nonsense from people who fancy a war as a moral crusade (Blair), or security services and government ministers who fancy more powers, and curtailing civil liberties (pretty much all of them then). Its as simple as that, really

7/7 was one incident

Its just not significant at all.

Oh

Dear

!

Why is a pick up truck full of jihadists with a mounted high calibre machine gun not a legitimate target in an air campaign intended to take out IS targets? I’m sure they’ve taken out more than just the one pick up truck. For all we know that truck could have been on its way to the next town to execute its inhabitants.

Anyway, apparently the pick up truck was blown up by our new super weapon – the Brimstone, which apparently has impressed foreign forces so much that we can’t sell enough of the.

I think there is more of a symbolic gesture with our involvement in that we are pulling together a force from a wide variety of different nations to give the campaign more credability – its not what kit you’ve brought to the party, its the fact your at the party.

How do you suppose flattening large parts of Iraq and Syria is going to prevent another 7/7? Serious question. If the people who perpetrated it were angry British Muslims, then surely killing more Muslims abroad is going to stir up more hatred for us not calm it down.

Bombing more of the middle east will not make us safer.

Since the airstrikes started more militias have joined ISIS, even those previously fighting against.

In Syria Al Nusra, also accused of summary executions and torture, are growing in power as much as ISIS weakens.

Exactly RaveyDavey. Its completely counter-productive, and will achieve the exact opposite of the stated aim of ‘making us safer’. It’ll just galvanise the Jihadis (as lifer points out – thats happened already) and reinforce the idea that this is a western crusade against islam

Theres not an awful lot of logic going on with those who are enjoying their war porn a little bit too much though. Phwooaaaaar A-10’s!!! Oh my giddy aunt!! A brimstone missile!!! Just look at the warhead on that?!! 🙄

Solo – Member
It’s special, if you can’t see that, nothing I post here will allow you to see it.
You of all people, should know that.

What a copout.

Try explaining.

jambalaya – Member

We tried the sit back and do nothing (post the defeat in the Commons last year) and that hasn’t worked out has it ?

You mean when we came within inches of bombing ISIS’s opponents for them? Doing nothing seems to have worked out a bit better than that, tbh.

What else can we try… Hey, maybe we can arm the opposition, that worked really well with the Sons of Iraq, right?

It all just suggests, again, that we haven’t got a clue what we’re doing.

Lifer – Member
What a copout.

Try explaining.

Perfect! your reply is better at explaining, than anything I could offer. In that ^ one statement, you’ve admitted that you’ve missed the point completely, in which case, I can’t help you.
Thank you.
😆

RaveyDavey – Member
How do you suppose flattening large parts of Iraq and Syria is going to prevent another 7/7? Serious question.
And what will giving in, doing nothing and demonstrating to IS that we won’t fight them, do. Serious question…

You do recall how Clinton could have killed Bin Laden, but didn’t…

I’ve made my point, IS are murdering people who need and have requested our help to stop this barbarity. I say we help, my reasoning being that if we leave these poeple to die at the hands of IS, when we might have been able to help, then what does that make us.

So, I’m thankful that the decisions such as the one Parliament had to take recently, to send in the planes and bombs, wasn’t taken by some of the folk on this thread.

Solo – Member
Perfect! your reply is better at explaining, than anything I could offer. In that ^ one statement, you’ve admitted that you’ve missed the point completely, in which case, I can’t help you.
Thank you.

Well that’s fantastically convenient for you.

I’ve made my point, IS are murdering people who need and have requested our help to stop this barbarity. I say we help, my reasoning being that if we leave these poeple to die at the hands of IS, when we might have been able to help, then what does it make us.

What about the 100 odd Sunnis murdered in Baghdad this week by the Shia militias fighting ISIS? The same fighters who have promised to ‘cleanse’ and ‘erase’ when they retake ISIS held territory.

The 59 beheaded by the Saudis since the beginning of the year?

The summary executions and torture committed by Al Nusra in Syria who, as I mentioned above, are gaining power as ISIS loses it?

And those killed by Assad?

Well that’s fantastically convenient for you.
Not really, it’s a demonstration of how incredibly obtuse you are.

What about

Let us ask Binners.
Its just not significant at all.

😉

Crikey, can someone please consider the cost please. I mean look at the cost of A-10 cannon by comparison to the guided missiles no wonder there is no agreement. Using A-10 cannon means there will be “unlimited” ammunition without the necessity of wasting those missiles.

Btw A-10 is solely used by USAF so nothing to do with British public spending so quids in.

😯

edit: As my Texan friend once said … “Hi-five!” 😛

double post

It all just suggests, again, that we haven’t got a clue what we’re doing.

+1

It all just suggests, again, that we you haven’t got a clue what we they’re doing.
FTFY

Solo – Member

It all just suggests, again, that we you haven’t got a clue what we they’re doing.
FTFY

Oh yes, very clever, instead of actually engaging the points just “ftfy”. Easier than dealing with the fact that the west decided to arm the sons of iraq to fight last week’s enemy, and now large numbers of their fighters have joined ISIS. Hey, does that sound familiar to anyone else? I wonder who we can arm today. Assad? Didn’t we want to bomb him? Forget, forget, forget…

And what will giving in, doing nothing and demonstrating to IS that we won’t fight them, do. Serious question…

@solo are you jesus? Seem to recall he always evaded the question as well. How will bombing Iraq and Syria stop British muslims from becoming radicalised and carrying out attacks on British soil? The reason you are evading the question is because the answer is, that it won’t. In fact it puts us at even more risk.

I think where we do agree is that the original invasion of Iraq was a mistake (obvious at the time IMO) and that the operation was poorly managed (once we had gone in we should have mad more troops there and done a better job of planning our successor) but now we are where we are. We have to deal with what’s in front of us today.

so in what way is this bombing any better?
i must have missed the parliamentary debate where they discussed the peacefull resolution of the conflict after the bombing and the formation of a stable, free and inclusive government

as far as I can see Cameron is just repeating the mistakes of Blair and a lot of people seem to be defending him?!?

Without doubt this is all very complicated and very messy, however that doesn’t mean we do nothing.

@kimbers the US has been pressing for a change of government in Iraq, one which was more inclusive. That took some time and it was only the recent change following pressure that lead to the new government making the formal request for assistance which allowed us to intervene. All these Blair/Cameron references are irrelevant, there would have been an Iraq invasion under Brown and whether it’s Cameron, Hague, Boris, Clegg or Milliband would make no difference.

Anyway, apparently the pick up truck was blown up by our new super weapon – the Brimstone, which apparently has impressed foreign forces so much that we can’t sell enough of them

so the entire thing is just an advert for our arms industry?

Go hide in your hole, if you wish. Allow this evil to prevail. But remember one thing. They’ll get to you, eventually.

solo you are a goldmine of ridiculous statements, do you live in constant fear of decapitation by jihadi?

Solo – Member
Well that’s fantastically convenient for you.
Not really, it’s a demonstration of how incredibly obtuse you are.

What about

Let us ask Binners.
Its just not significant at all.

It’s probably very significant to any Sunnis living under ISIS rule at the moment if the bombing campaign helps the Shia militias to take the territory and ‘cleanse’ and ‘erase’ the areas.

Really ? imminent threat to our safety, bombing campaign with america in Iraq, no mention of how we will actually ‘win’ this war and what comes after….

I’d say the Blair/Cameron comparison was quite apt

Sorry, I think it’s rather cynical to try to compare this time around with Iraq War 2. We’ve been invited by the government, like the French were in Mali and like we were in Sierra Leone. Of which both operations were reasonably successful.

Because we bollocksed up Iraq with sanctions and the 2nd Gulf war we have a duty to the people of Iraq to make sure they aren’t oppressed by IS.

The truth of the matter is that Assad and Saddam are and were necessary evils to keep the lid on the feudal tribal melting pots that are Syria and Iraq. Our continued involvement and desire to impose western democracy on tribal nations is doomed to fail. No nation has ever succesfully subdued Afghanistan in recent history either and they aren’t likely to any time soon. We should pull out regroup and tighten our border controls. Zero tolerance for extremism and move on.