Count zero – wind your bloody neck in! I never, not once criticised the RAF and would not ever criticise any of our armed forces, and for the record, army, infantry for 6 years.

My post was just musing at the politicians on all sides who made a big deal of the re-call of parliament for a vote that appears to have made very very little difference to to IS capabilities seeing as we are hitting in military terms, sod all at a large expense to every one, and in addition that the same politicians seem to very little will to commit to a real solution to this, at least not the solutions that most advisors on the region seem to think are necessary.

Looks like the septics might be unpacking these again which might restore the balance of relative costs of weaponry vs Hi-Luxes.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-10-01/a-10-warthogs-final-fight-off-to-war-against-islamic-state

Reading the article it looks like USAF suffers the same mentality as RAF only wanting shiny new stuff – ref. the retirement of RAF Harriers and them being picked up at bargain prices by USMC. Commentators in the article above reference an interest by USMC in getting some A-10’s.

binners – Member

I’m not very bright, to be honest.

And goodness, don’t we know it now.
😕

apart from the oil installations that they have captured and are apparently using to fund their war what infrastructure do they have that we can really bomb?

beyond mobile phones and laptops what more do they need to coordinate their insurgency

In a part of the world awash with weapons whos to know who the actual targets are, theyve dug in in places that were sympathetic to saddam and saw the creation of Al-Qaeda in Iraq, they must be quite close to many of the locals, I imagine that civillian casualties must be quite high (unlike gaza though the place isnt so closely monitored by the media)

Ultimately I just dont see much point to this, western interventions only seems to come back and bite us in the arse

Last time it was enough to motivate a load of guys from leeds and bradford to blow themselves up on the tube

If the Uk efforts are only a small % of the bombing, why provoke more terrorist reaction
and propping up the current failed iraqi government doesnt seem like a smart idea, excluding sunis and tribal minorities in favour of Al Malikis own chums has been a disaster for the country

The beheading videos were obviously designed to get a rise out of us, it seems that our government and military are only too happy to dance to IS’s tune

Solo – None of the clever boys in the class have answered the question though, have you? do you need someone as thick as me to run it past you again? Ok then….

Can you tell the class (even the fick ones) exactly what specific threat ISIS poses to western society?

Be warned though, I’m both impressed and confused by big words, so if you could try and keep the syllable count down, that would be great. Fanks

Fire away (so to speak)…..

Two things suprise me about all this.
1) how do the bombs know where they are pointed at, are they Lazer guided or summmat?
2) a better success rate might be achieved by two blokes, a large gargo net and a couple of morters or a huge piece of rope, one bloke one end, one the other then just walk along a high st in one of the main towns and hoard them up.

@binners, have been away form the site hence the non-response.

One of the major developments with Al-Q was the funding they had (from Bin Laden personally and his contacts) which allowed them to run sophisticated training camps and have resourses to buy explosives/weapons and fund international operations. ISIS is at another level in terms of finance and training. They pay their recruits and provide board and lodging and are recruiting “wives” now. All of this will be directed towards attacks on the West in due course if it’s not eradicated now. Radicalised individuals with training and money will try and return to the West and stage attacks. We have sen one individuals return to France and murder 4 people in Belgium. It will be much more of the same on a much bigger scale if we don’t do something about it.

@kimbers – I think the be-heading videos are aimed at ISIS supporters (to show impotent the west is), to discourage aid workers (ISIS want to be seen to be the only organisation that can help muslims, its a bit inconvenient if the westerners start looking like the good guys) and to western civilians who put pressure on their governments to say intervention is not worth it. The videos also encourage some governments to pay ransoms (US and UK will not but many do), so they are a fund raiser. Also its a big “revenge” message for Gunatanamo, mocking the orange suits used there. In the Iraq war Al-Q stopped the videos as they decided they where counterproductive but ISIS are putting a lot of effort into producing them.

Jambalaya – I understand we face a terrorist threat. What I’m disputing is whether the most effective way to address this threat is with missiles launched from aircraft. Didn’t work in Afghanistan, did it? And it won’t work in Iraq either. Its stupidity. We’re fighting the wars that we thought we were going to have 30 years ago. Are we seriously saying we’re going to eradicate terrorism by bombing them one Toyota at a time?

The only outcome that I can see is further radicalisation when the inevitable ‘collateral damage’ happens, which will actually have the opposite effect and actually only the terrorist threat.

We simply can’t bomb our way out of this one. We need to be far cleverer than that. Fat chance….

All of this will be directed towards attacks on the West in due course if it’s not eradicated now. Radicalised individuals with training and money will try and return to the West and stage attacks. We have sen one individuals return to France and murder 4 people in Belgium. It will be much more of the same on a much bigger scale if we don’t do something about it.

If this is true (which I’m sure it is) then IMO the ridiculous sums of money we have spent and are spending on overseas operations would be much better used giving our police and intelligence services/border controls more resources.

jambalaya – Member

All of this will be directed towards attacks on the West in due course if it’s not eradicated now.

Which is an argument for eradicating it now. But that’s not what we’re doing. Instead, we’re poking it with expensive sticks.

@Northwind/@binners I do agree but that’s all we can do politically, boots on the ground isn’t a realistic option for the US under Obhama and no other countries are going to consider it without the US taking the lead. IMO doing nothing is not an option. We in the West have made the correct choice that a £100k spent on a missile is better than a dead soldier.

I think where we do agree is that the original invasion of Iraq was a mistake (obvious at the time IMO) and that the operation was poorly managed (once we had gone in we should have mad more troops there and done a better job of planning our successor) but now we are where we are. We have to deal with what’s in front of us today.

scuttler – Member

Looks like the septics might be unpacking these again which might restore the balance of relative costs of weaponry vs Hi-Luxes.

Excellent! Finally Warthogs are out again as predicted.

A-10 Warthogs are brilliantly designed/adopted just for this kind of mission and are far cost effective then using missiles. Those bullets are far cheaper to buy …

Now let’s see the Warthogs cut the IS members into pieces.

In this sort of fight there is no need for fast moving planes just need plenty of these: Apache, Warthog A-10, B-52s, F-14, F-18, Tornado (even Jaguar would do) or Harriers …

edit: F-22 will be a very expensive failure …

jambalaya – Member
We in the West have made the correct choice that a £100k spent on a missile is better than a dead soldier.

There are more than those two options.

chewkw – Member
Excellent! Finally Warthogs are out again as predicted.

And the hardware fetishists’ trousers start twitching. 🙄

Lifer – Member

chewkw – Member
Excellent! Finally Warthogs are out again as predicted.

And the hardware fetishists’ trousers start twitching.

Hi-Five! 😆

Now let’s see the Warthogs cut the IS members into pieces

You do know this is real life and not a film right? Your lack of empathy is frightening to be honest. I’m no fan of ISIS or any pre or off shoots but they are still people. Kill or be killed fair enough but don’t gloat about taking a life.

Excellent! Finally Warthogs are out again as predicted.

Very sad that you feel so triumphant at putting other peoples life in danger and the need to kill. Such things may be deemed neccessary at times but there is no need to celebrate it. Western society struggles to prove that it is above “Revenge Justice” and no wonder when armchair generals like you make statements like that.

Cummon! Cummon! It’s A-10 Warthog! 🙄

chewkw – Member

Cummon! Cummon! It’s A-10 Warthog! fapp fapp fapp fapp

Cummon! Cummon! It’s A-10 Warthog!

Yes I remember them well. They killed 9 British soldiers in a ‘friendly fire’ attack in the Gulf war. War is filthy, disgusting, sometimes necessary but never fun mate!

Strikes me that the perfect aircraft for this operation are ground attack planes; A-10’s, Harriers, and Skyraiders,

Skyraiders? I know they talk about bombing people back into the last century but I didn’t realise that when we’d done that we got planes out of service for 40 years to bomb them back into the century before that!

There are more than those two options.

Indeed there are. The do nothing option cost less right now (but sees many 100,000’s of people killed be they Muslims of the “wrong” sect, Yazardi’s or Christians) but potentially very big costs down the road in defending attacks fro ISIS in our country. Also Turkey is a NATO member so if they are attacked are legally obliged to defend them. Surely better to fight ISIS now than later when they are larger/stronger ?

As an aside I have been a fan of the A10 ever since I saw one at Farnborough airshow a long long time ago. Great aircraft and revolutionary in it’s time. I appreciate getting excited about a killing machine can be seen a wierd but many of us appreciate the Spitfire for its design and effectiveness and the fact that its a symbol of resistance and freedom.

For the chickenhawks !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AuNJra2BQk

Lifer – Member

chewkw – Member

Cummon! Cummon! It’s A-10 Warthog! fapp fapp fapp fapp

That sounds like A-10 unleashing 30 mm GAU-8 Avenger rotary cannon. 😆

What I’m disputing is whether the most effective way to address this threat is with missiles launched from aircraft.

Funny that, on page one you were ranting about the cost, IIRC…
Total cost of all these Tornado sorties so far = 700 squillion pounds
Price of a battered Toyota HiLux with a couple of kalashnikovs on board = considerably less than 700 squillion pounds.

Did everyone enjoy Mr Osbournes announcements of the latest massive cuts to our ‘unaffordable’ public services yesterday?

Lifer – Member
jambalaya – Member
We in the West have made the correct choice that a £100k spent on a missile is better than a dead soldier.

There are more than those two options.

But you never seem to offer any answers, instead you tip-in just enough to moan and critisize. Thing is, if you have such disdain for people here and their views, why bother, yeah!
😉

You do know this is real life and not a film right? Your lack of empathy is frightening to be honest

As is the comments asking why we’re doing what we are and can’t we just turn our backs on the victims of IS.
johnners – Member
Why don’t we leave it to the Saudis, they’ve way more planes than us and they’re closer.

As is the comments asking why we’re doing what we are and can’t we just turn our backs on the victims of IS.

Why not???…… we have done jackshit for the people of Northern Nigeria for quite a long time now ! and I really cannot understand why !

Everyone with half a brain knows we’ll achieve nothing at all by bombing

Ignoring the fact we already have, as bombing in support of the fighters on the ground has pushed ISIS back from the dam and allowed the people to come down from the mountain top.

Sure now we probably need to change tack as ISIS have been forced to change tactics, but around end of August there was a real problem in Iraq. The RAF were very late to the game (hence lack of targets), presumably because Westminster wanted to avoid problems sending in the military in the run up to the Scotland Yes/No vote.

So sure their are problems with tactics and how to resolve the situation, but don’t pretend something didn’t need doing to prevent things in Iraq spiraling out of control.

Interesting and obviously very good that the Taxi Driver is still alive. I reckon there must a lot going on that we are unaware of, as it seems he was found not guilty in a Sharia Court of spying, which leads me to think there is some kind of power struggle, between those who want him killed and those who don’t.

In answer to your earlier question Binners, I believe that we need to stop this IS mob creating the Caliphate they desire, which would effectively provide them a huge Islamist power base in its own right…..which would of course lead to an even worse situation.

Everyone with half a brain knows we’ll achieve nothing at all by bombing
Well, there’s at least one Hi-Lux that won’t leave tyre tracks in the blood drenched sands of Iraq, anymore.

IS are completely out there and can’t be allowed to continue. It’s a decision they made for us, imo, we can’t just look away from what IS are doing there and pretend it’s not happening.

Solo. Can you tell me how what I’ve said is inconsistent? I think this whole thing is absolute bloody insanity.

You’ve critisized bombing, on the basis that it’s robbing vaulable funds for your public services, here at home (look after No1 first eh).
In reply to you, folk have suggested that bombing is likely cheaper than having more of our dearest blood, spilt in Iraq and Syria, by sending our soldiers there to fight IS.
In reply, you appear not to be able to distinguish between the cost of ordinance and the value of Human life, namely, the victims of IS and our soldiers.
Then you use the word “insanity”….

Perhaps you’ve spread yourself so thinly, across so many threads on here lately. That even your awesome levels of wisdom are failing to keep up. Might you consider a break from the keyboard, perhaps even a lay-down in a quiet, darkened room?
Calm down.

Interesting and obviously very good that the Taxi Driver is still alive. I reckon there must a lot going on that we are unaware of, as it seems he was found not guilty in a Sharia Court of spying, which leads me to think there is some kind of power struggle, between those who want him killed and those who don’t.

@Rockape, yes agreed. I hope he will be spared. There was an interview with a UK Muslim who was captured at the same time who had to tell the ISIS fighters he wasn’t a spy just because he had a chip in his passport, he showed them that all UK passports where like that. The Muslim guy was released thankfully. I have read on Al-Monitor.com a story from a Turkish hostage who was to be killed and who went through many mock executions who was eventually released when his captors where killed in fighting. Things are quite chaotic and in that there is some hope. There are many hostages including two young Italian women aid workers.

Are they developing long-range missiles then? Equipping themselves with an air force?

@binners, the cost of increased levels of policing and military, more intelligence resources dedicated to anti-terrorism plus the potential very significant economic impact in terms of lost business if there is an attack or fears of an attack. Look at the economic cost of 9/11 or 7/7, that’s without even considering the loss of life.

Well, there’s at least one Hi-Lux that won’t leave tyre tracks in the blood drenched sands of Iraq, anymore.

Yay for us, eh?!!! We’re great aren’t we? Our brave boys and girls are doings proud. Peace within the entire region is only 7,689,694,043 missiles away 🙄

You’ve critisized bombing, on the basis that it’s robbing vaulable funds for your public services, here at home (look after No1 first eh).

I’m criticising it as its a completely pointless exercise, that going to cost us an absolute fortune in cash that we apparently haven’t got to pay for schools, hospitals or a welfare state, and will ultimately achieve absolutely nothing

Which bit of that are you having the problem comprehending?

Jambalaya… again… I know theres terrorist threat. We all do. Nobody is disputing this. What I’m asking you, and which you have again failed to answer, is how blowing up the odd pick up truck, at enormous expense, is going to keep us all safer from terrorism back here. Because I can’t see how it conceivably can, at all. In fact, quite the reverse

Feel free to enlighten me though

I’m criticising it as its a completely pointless exercise, that going to cost us an absolute fortune in cash that we apparently haven’t got to pay for schools, hospitals or a welfare state, and will ultimately achieve absolutely nothing

I refer you back to my previous posts, that it isn’t that expensive (we’ve not dropped many bombs so far) and it was necessary as there was a chance of Iraq falling to ISIS.

Where we go from now is the big question? ISIS are boxed in to an extent but are we happy to keep them there or go in harder after them?

Solo – Member

IS are completely out there and can’t be allowed to continue.

So it’s kind of a shame that they are- because none of the forces opposing them is willing to do what it takes to actually stop them- only to inconvenience them and encourage them to find other ways to attack.

This is the basic problem. We’ve settled on the near-pointless inbetween, faced with there not being the political will to do the job right we’ve decided to do it wrong, instead of not doing it at all. We’ll waste some money and (re)paint the target on our heads and really not achieve very much at all, and unless we’re pretty lucky we’ll blow up a bus full of nuns and children’s faces and pour fuel on the fire. It’s the 650b of war, this.

Is the RAF’s remit to only target pickup trucks ?

Because if so then a pilot and his/her navigator must be getting a right rollicking about now as yesterday they targetted “20-30 jihadists ” in a half built hospital.

Perhaps there was a truck nearby and they missed it ?

They targetted “20-30 jihadists? Blimey! Thats me told eh? Up to 30 beardy blokes AND a Toyota?

Do we know if they hit any of the baddies? If so, I bet thats changed the balance of power in the region pretty significantly, eh? And we can all sleep safely in our beds tonight.

it’ll all be over by Christmas, eh? 🙄

Ref the costs….The other thing to consider is that the jets need flying, the Pilots need to be flying and bombs have shelf lives.

In other words, we would still be spending shed loads on flying, training and decommissioning out of date bombs that cost huge sums to make.

So…we may as well have an air war and it costs us very little.

Not heard anyone say that, quite the opposite infact. You should keep more abreast with current affairs old bean 🙂