Inspired a little bit by DezB’s pavement rant and something I’ve been mulling over in my head over a winter of commuting through Hampshire and various “state of the infrastructure” comments people have made what do you think could be the longer term solutions for better journies for all? Ignoring political will and accepting that you might need things to be worse before they got better.

So here’s my starter for 10…

The premise: Far too many short journies are done by car when shanks’ pony (that’s walking to you youngsters), the bus (tram or monorail) or a bike would be a much better mode of transport.

I am starting to think that the solution is to stop improving the roads for cars and in effect start making them deliberately less convenient. In particular to take space away from cars, especially in urban areas, to give to cleaner more sustainable modes of transport that space and more priority.

I am under no illusion that in the short term congestion would be worse but I wonder can you make enough “carrot” of safe brilliantly designed facilities balanced with a suitably large “stick” that people will eventually break and try something other than a car.

I’m not sure if you can go far enough or not without causing societal chaos but I can’t help thinking the carrot alone is not enough!

My follow up for 5…

Cycle facilities on trains that actually hold a decent number of bikes on major regional and cross-country routes so you can take your onward transport with you.

Seems simple doesn’t it?
Most experts would agree with you on both points.
And so does the evidence. Plenty of it…

New ideas aren’t needed, the political will to implement them is. You can’t ignore that, sorry. It is the core problem.

Your major problem is the transport lobby, which is very powerful.

build undergrounds and cycling networks in every city.

Your major problem is the transport lobby, which is very powerful.

That and lazy ****.

Offer tax breaks to individuals and companies to encourage working from home. Look at how much easier commuting is during school holidays.

I was looking the other day at the potential of e-bikes to fill a niche. Just a straw poll, but most of my office (Glasgow City Centre) could make the journey by something small and electrically powered.

Would they, though? No chance.

@kelvin re the politics

you can’t ignore that

I know that’s part of the reality of implementation but I’m interested in people’s conceptual/theoretical ideas. If we rule out things politicians are too frightened to do then we may only have “Build more roads” as a solution.

That and lazy ****

Yep, like the guy round the corner from us who will drive 150m to buy a newspaper and when it’s cold will leave the car running to defrost it first rather than using a scraper.

as a train,bus and bike user, up here on merseyside, huge investment is being put into new buses and bus shelters along with a whole new fleet of trains with increased space for cycles and cyclists, then we have secure bike sheds at most stations, actually in the stations on platforms, so easily watched.

But what is lacking is the dedicated routes to get you to the stations by bike, the changing rooms and shower areas and somewhere to store wet gear, GMPTE,(Manchester) is gradually introducing bike hubs which feature all the above with a bike shop tagged on for spares and repairs.

a problem with more bikes on trains is loading and unloading times and ensuring the dedicated spaces are not monopolised by the prams and pushchair brigade, then we have steps or small lifts in most stations, that require bikes to be carried up or down stairs or upended to fit in the lift.

What would also be a start if VAT was taken off all new bikes and helmets, to encourage more cycling, along with more grants to companies to install showers and changing rooms for cycle users, wirral did have a scheme a few years ago to do this.

We could just ban the poor, the slow, the stinky and arseholes generally. Would improve things no end.

….the other thing, of course, is making more people work remotely. Oddly enough, the company I work for sells remote-worker solutions, but has just decreed that we’re all only allowed to work remotely for a max of 4 days per month, agreed in advance.

Once the trust issue is overcome, we could do a lot.

Oh yeah, and ‘ban’ the school run. Far too much of that.

If you look at most inner cities, they’re already a total disaster for cars. But people still drive in, they just complain about it all the time. I don’t think making it worse would make the slightest difference, it needs to be outright bans or charging.

Quite. Very little thought is needed into how to do it – just copy what NL has been doing for years, simple.

Its normalisation too. Re the above, and my office:

-I pedal in out/from about 20 miles away, and dont generally hit any driver angst. Every driver that comes into my office, though, is in a queue of traffic for a min of 10 mins. They think nothing of this- its normal.

But a bike held them up for a minute?!?!? Haud the bus! Instantly. all cyclists are ar$eholes (and by proxy, thats me, as I represent them all in the way that random Muslims all need to have a view on ISIS).

Sort that out- folk thinking that wasting time sitting in a metal box in a queue of other metal boxes is ok- and we’d be halfway there.

For me it’s simple. Anything other than a car is seen as a second class option. Unless public transport can be made cheaper, more accessible and quicker than car ownership then you’re going to get nowhere.

The irony, is that the vast majority of people, if they ditched their cars for short journeys, would almost instantly start to feel better.
The benefits are many, and affect all, but the problem is people’s perception that it’s not safe, or that they couldn’t ride a bike, etc.
Lack of political will is the problem.

I have recently encountered people who get up early so that they can get a good parking space at work.
A car makes my commute hell on earth. I either walk, run or cycle the 3 miles to work.
Joe Motorist can’t even comprehend that there is an alternative.
Education is needed. The only thing that will get people out of their cars is inconvenience.
A picture of my parking space taken from where I stand all day. You couldn’t get more convenient.

I hate to point this out, but there’s a bloke stealing your hairdressers’ car

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UjOJy_54DM[/video]

VED used to directly subsidise free public transport fares.

Oyster type cards log journeys, standard fare per mile which the gets passed for VED income to pay.

The more people switching to public transport leaves less vehicles to cover the increasing cost …. driving VED upwards … thereby an ever increasing push to public transport or alternative.

Tube technology. Like in futurama. And also covered cycle lanes (which are also kind of like tubes) so you can stay nice and dry when cycling in.

Charging for parking realistic amount would help – you if you leave you r car on the road it cost 10p an hour or more. Its public land appropriated for the minority. Its about time they paid. Also remove all the rest of the subsidy to car drivers. Its huge. A part of my taxes as a non driver go towards paying the costs of the drivers

Garage Dweller – what you suggest is much what the dutch did back in the 70s. Back then the UK and the netherlands had similar cycling rates. Ours declined. theirs increased.
Time to post this again
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBdf9jYj7o[/video]

I’ve said it before but in each city nominate a roads czar and give them a huge pile of cash when they get city wide private car usage down year on year. Someone from the logistics sector, methinks.

Imho, the supermarkets still seem to be lagging behind in terms of cycle-friendliness.

They could use those trolley docks where you put a pound coin in and leave your trolley behind as secure bike storage.

Don’t know if any of them have signed up to the govts bike to work scheme.

I get suspicious stares from the staff if I take my panniers with me when shopping.

…though in my experience it’s car owners that shoplift to subsidise their car use!

Their world view seems to be underpinned by car ownership as the superior technology.

I think they require re-education.

Not singling anyone out, but Tescos had some empty supermarkets tucked away somewhere. An ideal place to demo/ sell e-bikes?

In 2015 we will all be able to get one of these.

Ban private cars from inner cities or at the very least wide spread congestion charging. All the space vacated by parking could be used for cycle ways and bus lanes, allow delivery vehicles which are tracked, taxis and busses.
Remove all parking from within 500m of schools.
Give companies tax credits for reducing commuting.

You’re all nailing the stick but IMO

For me it’s simple. Anything other than a car is seen as a second class option. Unless public transport can be made cheaper, more accessible and quicker than car ownership then you’re going to get nowhere.

is the only carrot worth considering.

Completely agree. In addition…

– Force bus operators to invest in buses with working heaters and air conditioners to keep them cool in the summer months and dry / warm through the winter.
– Employ drivers with an element of driving skill and customer service (looking at you, TFL)
– Congestion charge for any non-electric vehicle driving into a big town or city. Live in the middle and drive a noxious banger? Bad luck. Sell it, or pay the charge. Happy to provide a free G-Wizz or something though to people with disability.
– Change the public perception that bikes are second class citizens on the road.
– Force big companies turning huge profits to offer the cycle to work scheme, along with lockers / showers / secure storage.
– Make walking easier. Fit pedestrian crossings and don’t force people to walk through knee high muddy grass to cross the road. Oh look, London again. Wonder where the money is going?
– Stop giving cars priority at pedestrian crossings.
– Have a sliding scale for road tax, enforced by GPS, that aggressively penalises short journeys for non-disabled users.
– All towns / cities to run 24 hour public transport.
– Force a minimum essential service during strikes.
– Sort pricing out for rail journeys. I can get a return flight from t’north to London for £60 by booking on the day. That’d be £250 to a rail company.

Unfortunately, I think the transport industry would arrange for an unfortunate accident involving me and a runaway bus should I ever come to power with the intention of implementing the above.

We’re expecting the wing people to do the right thing. We need to encourage the right people to stand for election and then support them to get elected and make better decisions.

Population control.

I would suggest randomly poisoning say, 10 percent of energy gels.

You cant widen a road without putting in an equivalent length of dedicated (ie, separated from traffic) cycle path.

Reclaim disused railway lines, but tarmac them and make them bus and taxi routes only.

Distance based taxation for cars. With GPS technology this should be “simple” enough*, taxation of your motor vehicle usage is based on distance travelled. But, it would also have a series of multipliers, such as short distance journeys such as the school run, nip to the shops, etc., where the start and end points are say less than a mile apart then you pay substantially more for that mile than a mile on a proper journey.

You would also pay a premium for travel to eg: hub areas such as local towns, to incentivise public transport, where that is available.

If for example you need the car to drive to town on occasions to pick up a load of shopping you can still use it but factor it in to the cost of the trip, and get it delivered or shop online instead.

You’ll also pay for long journeys but that will be on the basis of it being a long way.

* f-ing complicated more like but, y’know, computers and IT, etc.

The counter to this is that public transport infrastructure needs improvement; frequency / reliability and importantly cost.

All the while it costs me £9 for the wife and me and 2 U15’s to go into town and back by bus (2 miles) vs max a couple of quid in petrol and £2.40 car parking – why would we?

Similarly have been scoping out an Easter holiday weekend away in the north; even with a family and friends railcard the train fare is £244 for the four of us vs maybe £60-80 petrol; then we’d need public transport to get around while we’re there, etc.

Why would supermarkets provide more cycle facilities? You can’t put as much shopping on a bike as in the boot of a car so it would impact sales.

A local business implemented a restriction on who could use their corporate parking: no-one who lived within 3 miles of the premises could use the parking. They laid on free buses in their place. What a fuss that caused! The town centre is full at lunchtime of cars from this business despite it being only 300m away as the workers drive into town to get their lunch. It takes them longer to find a parking space than it would to walk.

I’d group activities into being part of the problem or part of the solution. Those activities that are part of the problem are taxed to subsidise those that are part of the solution. It’ll be a fight though. We had a few years of very mild anti car policy with the last Bristol mayor and boy was there a fuss

I am starting to think that the solution is to stop improving the roads for cars and in effect start making them deliberately less convenient.

Cardiff do that by just not repairing the roads or repainting junctions! Sadly it also makes it worse on a bike too 🙁

What would also be a start if VAT was taken off all new bikes and helmets, to encourage more cycling, along with more grants to companies to install showers and changing rooms for cycle users.

Losing VAT (or at least dropping it to say 5%) would be a good carrot I reckon. Add in some congestion charging in cities and it pushes the economics further towards the bicycle. The cycle infrastructure at work carrot already exists in Wales but it’s not enough to convince my work to do it, doesn’t make it cost-neutral tax-wise.

But people still drive in, they just complain about it all the time. I don’t think making it worse would make the slightest difference, it needs to be outright bans or charging.

This is the biggest problem, people’s ‘right’ to drive everywhere. The vast majority of the drivers in the country cannot see past using their car to do a trip, they’ve earned their license by passing a test (once..) and earn money to pay for their car so they’re going to us it whenever they can and want!

TheotherjonV – your comparisionbetween public transport and car use shows why the huge subsidy on cars from general taxation should be stopped.

If car drivers paid the full price of motoring it would become much more expensive

Another solution is like the dutch do with town planning. Supermarkets are not allowed to open food shops out with the town centre zones – so you don’t get the huge supermarkets that you have to drive to and their town centres are not dead like ours. Tesco don’t even bother to operate in the netherlands because they can’t use their usual practices to kill off all other food shops

Radical ideas?

All public transport (buses, trains, trams, underground etc) to be state-owned and completely free at the point of use.

This…

Distance based taxation for cars. With GPS technology this should be “simple” enough*, taxation of your motor vehicle usage is based on distance travelled. But, it would also have a series of multipliers, such as short distance journeys such as the school run, nip to the shops, etc., where the start and end points are say less than a mile apart then you pay substantially more for that mile than a mile on a proper journey.

Plus

Kids go to local schools.
Stagger school start & finish times.
Tax incentives for car sharing
All schools are safely accessible by bike within a given radius eg 3km

people hate each other and at the same time want to show off to strangers; which is why they are happier to sit in traffic alone in their cars, than get to where they want to be quicker*, by having to share their space with a stranger. Until this changes, people will hang onto their cars as long as they can, even if it’s costly (if fact cost is probably the least important issue in this debate).

* I say quicker, but in reality a tube in rush hour is hell on toast, and just a slow as the traffic above it.

Anything other than a car is seen as a second class option. Unless public transport can be made cheaper,

How does making a ‘second class option’ cheaper change that perception? For people who can afford to own and run a car the affordability of public transport is neither here nor there. Its not what it costs its whether people value it. Making it cheaper, particularly through subsidy, just adds to the perception that public transport is for ‘other people’. Thats not to say there aren’t people who would benefit from reduced fares – but they’ll be the people who already use busses and trains.

In an era of increasing road fuel duty, increasing VED for thirsty cars, congestion charging and all the rest people are choosing to driver more in bigger, less efficient, more expensive to service and run, thirstier cars. Thats in spite of the fact that cheap economical cars have never been better or cheaper or more economical. It isn’t the cost of public transport thats dissuading them from using it.

people hate each other and at the same time want to show off to strangers;

I wonder whether this is going to be the big deal-breaker for self driving car technology. It doesn’t give the driver any outlet for judgementalism or spite. You can’t do that ‘i’m not looking at you, I’m not going to let you in’ thing, or jump the queue, or perform punishment passes in a self driving car.

Reclaim disused railway lines, but tarmac them and make them bus and taxi routes only make them cycle paths.

FTFY