Starting tonight on BBC4 9pm. My initial thought was “no thanks, I remember it when it was happening”. BUT, it looks pretty worthwhile if you have any interest in how these things develop. The first episode goes back to the 19th century and the ousting of the French colonialists.

Cheers. I might have a look at that.

Top man I’ll take a look at that. Cheers for the heads up.

Yeah, recorded.

I remember the fallout from it (being v young in the states late 70’s/80’s)
😕

Thanks for that..

Is this the Ken Burns documentary series?

Thanks, recording

Sam Harris interview with Ken Burns and Lynn Novick describing the painstaking detail involved in the making of the serios.

Sam Harris Podcast

Thanks.

Very good so far, was gonna go to bed but sucked in.

You’d think after the legacy of colonialism and repeated attempts to supply arms and advisors and eventually troops to prop up despots around the world that it always ends badly.

And yet we are still doing just that, Saudi, Yemen etc

Fascinating Docu. What a mess it all was….

Also, as our we get more freedoms of what can be shown on TV, the true horror of the images recorded at the time can now perhaps be finally seen. The amount of awful footage is staggering. A lesson to all

You’d think after the legacy of colonialism and repeated attempts to supply arms and advisors and eventually troops to prop up despots around the world that it always ends badly.

Look at Afghanistan. Hundreds of years of in-fighting, sponsored at various times by all sides. No winners.

It’s astonishing isn’t it? No-one ever learns.

Was Kennedy’s admission of failure at the end re the coup a public speech or private recording?
Not very often you hear a politician admitting something like that

It is on the Sky box, so looking forward to watching it tonight. Ken Burn’s Civil War documentary was fantastic too, and worth watching if it is still available.

It’s astonishing isn’t it? No-one ever learns.

On the contrary (unless you mean us grazing and stupefied Joe Public) our politicians have learned very well how to foment and use an ‘enemy’ abroad in order to hold onto their throne at home. We send a frown or a laugh on Facebook as they rip countries to pieces. Same at home. Reducing the number of disabled people/ disability benefit claimants sick and disabled people by driving them to suicide? Hmm, better send a frown on Facebook, but be sure to keep the Government responsible in place because they are going to save the very NHS they are selling off, er, by leaving the EU and showering it with love. Of course they will! ‘Mmm, wonder what’s on telly tonight, did you buy those crisps I like?…’. ‘Not not people dying, too depressing, whatabout Gogglebox? It’s like looking at me looking at you looking at me!?’ ‘What’s on Facebook?’ ,’Me, liking your like of me frowning at your like of yesterday’s like!’ Pass the crisps…

Commentary here on The apparently overlooked civilian angle (I’ve not seen it)

https://theintercept.com/2017/09/28/the-ken-burns-vietnam-war-documentary-glosses-over-devastating-civilian-toll/

Commentary here on The apparently overlooked civilian angle (I’ve not seen it)

I’ve not seen the whole series yet, but within the first few minutes they’d gone through the death toll, from the tens of thousands (US troops) through to the millions (Vietnamese civilians). It didn’t look like they were ignoring the impact on non-Americans, albeit there’s a long way to go.

I also note that the guy writing that piece has a book to flog..

Like War itself, everyone see’s things with a different view.

This is a long, glossy, expensive documentary, for Television.

Unlike in a ‘specialist interest’ book, had they spent 18 hours just interviewing people about the horror, then they would have had zero viewers after two episodes.

Far better to tell a Story well, and have that Story heard, than get caught up in individual details, and have no one listen, imo!

(all wars are horrible to the people caught up in them. It doesn’t what, where, or when they occur.)

That is a pretty bitter review.

Part3 on now

No winners.

That’s a bit naive.

Brutal, just brutal. there are no other words…..

Damn stayed up to watch it all again, now going to bed with a grim feeling of dread for humanity

This is worth a read, an incredible story of what someone is capable of surviving (physically and mentally):

Just watched the first 3. Staggering! The American government had been told that even with 200,000 more troops it was still unwinnable, yet they still went ahead

It seems like we truly have learnt nothing, as Iraq and Afghanistan seem to follow the same cycle.

Repeat to fade…

Mad to hear that some of the white guys lived in completely segregated communities, and serving alongside them was the first time they’d met anyone black or Hispanic.

One guy said ‘we found out we were all the same. Poor.’

Just watched the first 3. Staggering! The American government had been told that even with 200,000 more troops it was still unwinnable, yet they still went ahead

One senses – in the eyes of the US Gov – that defeat is not an option when you can simply expend x thousand more individuals as cannon fodder. Far better to at least have a chance of achieving your outcome as opposed to “losing” by quitting early.

Re the Middle East, TE Lawrence argued it was impossible for Westerners to win them over through any form of integration/occupation. That was nearly 100 yrs ago. He was right then and he will be right forever more.

cheers for the reminder, eps 1 & 2 were brilliant. Will stick on 3 now.

It’s on the PBS website as well.

I can’t get iPlayer at the moment, so I will be watching it here.

http://www.pbs.org/show/vietnam-war/

I’m enjoying it as well… It feels like it is sticking to the original script and the frightening thing is it sounds like some of this history is repeating…

What really surprises me is how stupid the people in charge were..why? How? Do stupid people keep getting elected? Great documentary though 🙂

You would think America, having been involved in a number of unwinnable wars, would know better by now. But no, they keep leaping in.

Do stupid people keep getting elected?

I’m not aware of any evidence of this.

Just watched the first 3. Staggering! The American government had been told that even with 200,000 more troops it was still unwinnable, yet they still went ahead

It is amazing, the US government knew very well (and understood) it was unwinnable and they were supporting an unacceptable regime (both johnson & kenndy said as much) seems like they were pushed along by the last 15 years of the “national” rhetoric; we are the leaders of the free world and we have to stand up to the red menace. So much so it became like a noose around their necks slowly dragging them into the conflict. A fascinating watch!

If you are interested in this period in Asia try and find a copy of The Quicksand War by Lucien Bodard about the French in Indochina from 1945 to 1958 ish it will blow your mind about what the French actually tried to achieve with a fraction of the men and resources of the Americans in later years

Ep 5 just finished, and straight into Ep6. Must watch TV imo, in all it’s horror……

Yeah it’s a good-en.

Have always been very interested in the propaganda and shady stuff governments of all varieties pull leading into these situations. It really is fascinating the lengths they go too.

Speaking of which the tug of war over Cyprus is another very interesting little episode in recent history.

Heads up. Ep7 & 8 tonight from 10pm !

I used to work beside a guy who was just annoyingly good at stuff but never boasted about things.

We were talking about some previous Vietnam programme when he tells us he was there. His parents were missionaries and he was lifted off the American embassy on one of the last days. He remembers being on a yank naval vessel watching film of street fighting outside what was his house. It took three weeks to get reunited with his parents.
I think that even at such a young age he was affected by the conflict and invasionary American force, ironic given his parents “job”.

shit that was grim watching

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre

absolutely shocking that the soldiers were never punished

although as said, when its bombs dropped on civillians no one cares