Midnighthour – Member
Ti just seems a waste of time now – 5 years lifespan? – just snob value, not a good product at all.

As this thread has already highlighted, it has nothing to do with the frame material. There are folk running some pretty old Ti frames with no problems whatsoever.

Thats the thing though, loads of these new Ti frames seem to be cracking. maybe the quality of titanium has gone downhill or manufacturers pushing the wall thickness thinner and thinner to get the weight down or something…?

seems very strange.

float – Member
Thats the thing though, loads of these new Ti frames seem to be cracking. maybe the quality of titanium has gone downhill or manufacturers pushing the wall thickness thinner and thinner to get the weight down or something…?

You’re only hearing from the vocal/unhappy minority. It does seem that Ti has become a lot more common over the last 4-5 years, that’s why you are hearing more stories.

There are folk running some pretty old Ti frames with no problems whatsoever.

Yes, like me – still using my Tinbred most days. I can’t remember when I bought it, but it’s one of the earliest ones, from before Brant worked out how to get the stickers to stay stuck on the frame 🙂

Why would you expect a Ti frame to last longer than a Steel one? Be lighter, yes; but not last longer. Nothing ever lasts for ever. Of course, many of us have frames that are 20 years old, but in that time have broken one or two as well. C’est la vie.

buy cotic, i broke my soul frame in a crash and cotic sold me a new one with a £125 discount.
now thats nice service.

all frames will eventually break no matter what theyre made of.

I’ve followed this thread with interest.

I got into biking in the early 90’s and remember spending hours pouring over bike mags. I seriously lusted after Merlin frames, they seemed so ‘perfect’ and, as a young teenager, seriously out of reach.

20 years later I now find myself in a position to afford something that I thought I would never have. Owning a top end, quality titanium frame is within my reach. I always thought though that when you buy something like this that is seriously top end, you were buying into a package. Excellent frame, excellent company, excellent service. Almost like you pay a premium to buy into the whole package. That is how you justify the price.

Apperently not.

Not sure if I want one anymore.

Litespeed Ratner moment me thinks – bet all their customers are going to love the ribbing they will get from their less affluent mates out on the trail 😆

I snapped my Unicoi which was bought new. Same thing, apparently a 71kg XC whippet is not the right person to be on it and I created excess wear and tear by using it. I gave up and had a Serotta custom made after i grilled them on warranty. I would never ever buy Litespeed ever again.

Great to see that if you Google “litespeed warranty”, the first page is full of forum threads like this one and this one too.

What are Litespeeds credential anyway?

Is it a case of assumed quality due to the cost? that said was it them that made many road bikes for other brands back in the day.

I have a cheap Ti road frame that gets a hammering, eight years old now and still sweet as.

I had said to the missus about 2 months ago that when life’s back on an even keel, I’ll buy a Litespeed.

Now there’s no question, there are obviously many Litespeed failures and huge Litespeed issues and the Litespeed warranty isn’t worth the paper it’s written on.

There won’t ever be space made in my garage for one.

brant?@shedfire

Another forum thread propagating myths about steel and titanium “fatigue limits”. Little knowledge = dangerous

scaredy@home
= quite irritating when people imply expertise but don’t share it

Well said scaredy, he’s got multiple previous too.

JFGI

“Typical values of the limit (Se) for steels are 1/2 the ultimate tensile strength, to a maximum of 100 ksi (690 MPa). For iron, aluminium, and copper alloys, Se is typically 0.4 times the ultimate tensile strength. Maximum typical values for irons are 24 ksi (165 MPa), aluminums 19 ksi (131 MPa), and coppers 14 ksi (96.5 MPa).[2] Note that these values are for smooth “un-notched” test specimens. The endurance limit for notched specimens (and thus for many practical design situations) is significantly lower.”

So, so long as your cyclic fatigue load never exceeds the fatigue limit, all is golden.
But if you want to do the sums and look at the material thicknesses that would have to be used to lower the material stress to this level, you’ll see where the problem lies.

Certainly on lightweight performance bicycles, I cannot think of many structural parts that will offer infinite fatigue life.

you’ll see where the problem lies.

usually on the non drive side drop-out/stays 🙄

Thanks Brant,

though as a non-engineer that stuff is meaningless and I’m not able to do the calcs (there’s no Ti figure there either but it’s not like I can make use of it)

are you saying that NO currently used “proper” lightweight frameset (in any material) is within its limits during riding ?
How far off ?
(and what % “cycles” will exceed the threshold – presumably these need to add up to result in failure, or is one enough to screw it thereafter ?)

I won’t ask how you feel about their warranty wording – unless you fancy it 😉

Some useful frame strength / stiffness / fatigue info

crazylegs on the flipside specialized refused to honour a warranty claim with me. I argued that some customers will get their shoes cold wet and muddy.
So thats three sets failed in the sameplace. None replaced.Got an issue with spesh shoes? Make sure you dont have any signs of use on them.

“Deal with the shop” and silence was their replies. Specialized and Evanscycles customer service skills are incompetent.

I spoke to two Specializeduk contacts and explained this wasnt the first product failure. Their response? Ignored. Never bad this with any other brand, regardless of product.

Specialized you suck.

I wonder if they (Litespeed) have read this & thought $1000 (est mfr cost), would have been a small price compared to the bad press a 7 page Internet thread generates.

I nearly bought a Ti frame recently. Went with a steel Niner frame instead. I figured that at least its repairable at a reasonable cost if it does fail out of warranty. 😕

Sad state of affairs at Litespeed.

Why would you expect a Ti frame to last longer than a Steel one?

Because that’s what the Ti hype machine has been telling us for the last 20+ years? I’ve got a Schwinn steel frame from 1952, and if my Ti road frame lasts that long I’ll re-name myself Mavis Phannyphart.

To be fair – Litespeed very much pushed the longevity issue in their own literature – for example, the 2004 catalogue had this to say:

Fatigue strength is the measurement of how far and how many times a material can bend before it breaks. High fatigue strength is essential to the durability and safety of the frame. Certain materials such as steel and titanium actually have a threshold that if properly designed and used, can be bent an infinite number of times without failure.

Which would strongly suggest that if it broke due to fatigue in normal use during the ‘lifetime of the original owner’ then there was a design or manufacturing issue.

Seems obvious to me that Litespeed have very much traded on this ‘lifetime warranty’ as a big selling point for many years, in both their catalogues and advertising,

Certain materials such as steel and titanium actually have a threshold that if properly designed and used, can be bent an infinite number of times without failure.

The “if” is the key there. I don’t think it’s possible in many bicycle areas, and certainly not Ti down tubes. Not INFINITE life.

Best case welds double the stress in the joint, I’d have said. So that means working fatigue cycles need to be well below 25% of UTS for fatigue life, more like 15%.

That arguable gives a factor of safety of 4 to 6, for ultimate strength, which is quite high for a performance structure.

I have to go catch a plane, but there is some very good stuff on the old internet – Usenet – posted by richkatz@cruzio.com – go have a dig and see who that is 🙂

My beef was that it was a lifetime warranty,that was until it snapped and then it wasn’t actually a lifetime warranty. That annoyed me a bt. Lifetime of first owner s jut at, not lifetime of the material.

‘SHITESPEED’

We now rename you by forum poll 😀

Just googled Litespeed warranty. Thread, after thread, after thread about their effectively worthles warranties. And its been going on for sometime too. Here’s a link http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-736934.html – A sad state of affairs. I’ve just bought a Turner on the basis of their excellent customer service. They warranty their frames for two years. That seems a reasonable amount of time. If you’re using it regularly and there is a defect, its going to become clear fairly soon. As I understand it, they had problems with the 2009 1st generation 5.Spot and they sorted it quickly and cleanly and actually enhanced their rep as a result. IMO its a real shame when these family-owned businesses get bought out and the suits trade on the brand equity whilst simultaneously defrauding it. FWIW there are a few comments on here about Marin and how good their customer service is. They were recently bought out by a private equity outfit. I have hear nothing whatsoever to indicate that this ha effected their customer service, but I will be watching with interest to see if it does. I’m all off to email Litespeed about their warranties!

Hmm… seems that a lifetime warranty against manufacturing defects has raised people’s expectations to the level that they think a frame will last as long as the buyer does. I didn’t/don’t read it that way, but I expect wise companies will offer far more limited warranty periods in future.

wise companies will offer far more limited warranty periods

I think thats fair comment – I don’t think many of us would expect a frame to last forever, however I think its disingenuous for a company to push their ‘lifetime warranty’ as a selling point as strongly as Litespeed have over the years, to not stand by it.

The company I work for reckon the realistic lifetime of our product is two to five years dependent on amount and type of use. I think that’s reasonable for high performance lightweight cycle racing components – it carries a two year warranty, and if something fails in normal use in that time, then we cover it under warranty, outside that, we don’t, and we carry spare parts for five years.

Seems simple to me – if you only expect your frames to last 5-10 years of normal use, then don’t advertise them as having a ‘lifetime’ warranty.

They warranty their frames for two years. That seems a reasonable amount of time. If you’re using it regularly and there is a defect, its going to become clear fairly soon

I would hope that, through proper use and maintainence a frame would last at least 5 years. a fault might not show itself for that period but I would have had a good use of it over that period because, lets face it, when you spend over £1000 on a frame you are going to use it!

I have to go catch a plane, but there is some very good stuff on the old internet – Usenet – posted by richkatz@cruzio.com – go have a dig and see who that is

Keith Bontrager!
http://search.bikelist.org/query.asp?SearchString=%22HBS%3A+Re%3A+Frame+fatigue%22&SearchPrefix=%40msgsubject&SortBy=MsgDate%5Ba%5D

Turner took 40mins to offer me a replacement better frame. I only paid 750 for it and explaibed Ud be hapoy with a resprayed rear…… nope brand new later frame.

makes me laugh really, in bmx (freestyle, not racing) a lifetime warranty is just that, and all the scummy bmx kids abuse it horribly. if bmx companies took the same stance as some of these mentioned they would be shunned and probably go out of business due to bad rep.

I got the same response from ABG/Litespeed last year when my 8 yo Merlin XLM cracked. It’s a wear & tear failure, not covered under warranty.

I didn’t take up their offer of a replacement Litespeed. Indy Fab got my money.

brant – Member
Certain materials such as steel and titanium actually have a threshold that if properly designed and used, can be bent an infinite number of times without failure.
The “if” is the key there. I don’t think it’s possible in many bicycle areas, and certainly not Ti down tubes. Not INFINITE life.

None of us are likely to live for infinity either, so I fail to see what the problem is.

I just got sanctioned by Singletrack for expressing an over simplistic view of Litespeed for reneging on this warranty promise. My post was deleted.

So I would just like to say that I think Litespeed to be loathsome in the extreme for this behaviour.

Is that better?

And as for Brant intervening there….my 456Ti broke at the top tube near the head tube. Yes it was replaced on warranty. Yes On One did pay my postage. BUT….. I would rather it had been built 1/2 pound heavier and not suffered this failure. I would rather not have had to deconstruct and reconstruct the bike and spend several weeks without it.

Unpaid R & D operatives………………………the purchasing public.

Nice one to the poster for posting this

the less you ride, the longer your frame will last, and the shorter your life will become (unless you’re a commuter, other factors may come into play)

So the key to a lifetime warranty is only to offer it on fantastically unrideable frames.

I just got sanctioned by Singletrack for expressing an over simplistic view of Litespeed for reneging on this warranty promise. My post was deleted.

I presume they are planning an in depth article which looks at this issue, how customers view “lifetime of first owner” warranty’s, the views of the manufacturers, LBS’s, a legal view on the warranty contract and the ASA view on the difference between customer expectation and the manufacturers statements on their websites.

They obviously would not want you to “spook” a manufacturer they are investigating by making extreme adverse comments on their public website forum.

after all they are “journalists”

What would Martin Bell do?

I would rather it had been built 1/2 pound heavier and not suffered this failure.

There’s no guarantee that, if it had been half a pound heavier, it wouldn’t have broken there. Would you really want every part of your bike so massively overengineered that there’s no chance of it ever failing in your lifetime?

The company I work for reckon the realistic lifetime of our product is two to five years dependent on amount and type of use.

Oh do tell I am sure they would be delighted by your PR work for them on here 😉

Are you the hitman for Superstar products? Perhaps you are just the trouble shooter 😉