Just out of curiosity…how many people who have posted arguments above along the lines of ‘lorry drivers should know…etc etc’ have actually driven HGVs themselves?

I’ve an HGV licence.
As Izakimak has pointed out, even more mirrors actually cause more blindspots, especially with regard to roundabouts and exiting side streets. My last trip into London (DAF CF 26T rigid, pretty long though, 6 mirrors and a rear view camera to keep an eye on) involved the following junction – Junction I was waiting to turn left here, sat still with indicator on, straddling both lanes as with all the traffic coming out of the side road blocking the yellow box, there wasn’t much room to swing the vehicle. As I sat there I watched a cyclist come up my inside, passing from being visible in rear view camera, rear view mirror, blindspot mirror, and then disappearing from view. He stopped I think, level with the cab, but too far away to be in my kerb mirror, and not far enough forward to be in the front view mirror. Lights go green, I set off straight forwards, looking for the cyclist, still can’t see him but assume he is still there. I had to stop before actually turning as I still couldn’t see him, at which point he rides from my blind spot and continues straight ahead FFS! So he’s ridden up the inside of a large vehicle past the indicators, stopped where he can’t be seen, and then seemingly expects me to know where he is and what he intends to do. Cyclists really do need educating on this.

A loop or 2 of the back streets and I find myself having to reverse into this market Market I couldn’t believe the amount of people who drove (yep, on the pavement bit), walked, cycled and pushed their prams behind me as I tied to complete this manoeuvre. I was fortunate in having 2 folk from the factory I was collecting from trying to help me, but even so, trying to keep up with everything that’s going on is nigh on impossible. It wasn’t until a policeman turned up and started shouting at people to stop going behind me that I was confident enough to complete backing in.

I’m not saying all lorry drivers are saints, I’ve been forced of the road (on my bike) before by HGV’s, but cyclists really do need to know just where they can and can’t be seen.
Better education is the answer, not more mirrors, sensors and cameras, after all, if I’m looking at a screen in the dashboard, I’m not looking at the wide angle mirrors to see what’s about to go behind me etc
I’m just grateful that driving HGV’s is only a small part of my job.
Oh, and regarding using more but smaller vehicles, the collection I was doing that day would have needed either the 26T I was in, or 3 7.5T trucks, the machinery simply wouldn’t have fitted in anything smaller.

That went on a bit didn’t it!

You can only look in one mirror at a time, you can plaster mirrors and cameras all over a wagon and cover every blind spot but the driver only has two eyes..the answer is three words long…educashun educashun educashun….
every day there’s a contender for the Darwin award when you’re an hgv driver…

Actually, on reflection – maybe an audible warning when the left hand indicators go on, like the “caution, this vehicle is reversing”

Luminous – Member

Alternatively stay behind the truck ensuring you can see the driver in the mirror so you know that he can see you too

Thats sort of what I said in my first post. About if you can’t see the driver, then they can’t see you.

The video showed cyclists standing still at the side of the cab, out of the field of view of the mirrors just as you would see at a traffic light controlled junction or round about. I was depending on the driver having to check his mirrors and the display in the cab before moving off. I think one wide angle or fish eye lens camera could cover a wider field of view off the near side of the cab ?. And I was thinking just one camera, above the passenger door, looking down onto the exact blindspot shown in the video.

It was just an idea to supplement the other suggestions here and to contribute to what is probably several measures that could be considered to prevent this type of accident.

I know what you mean but in reality cyclist keeping moving, bad track standing, jostling for position. Camera and mirrors can only do so much and can’t compensate for when the blindspot moves due to the angle of cab to trailer.
Most other road users know not to go down the inside of truck but cyclist still persist in doing so. The answer really is to stay back, a few seconds advantage isn’t worth your life.
This isn’t unique to cyclist, left hand drive trucks have a large blind spot on their right. Many accidents have occured due to this and car drivers/motorcyclists now tend to give a wide berth of these foreign trucks. Again you can’t make the truck any safer but you can ensure you are not in the dangerzone if you aware of the risks.

Zulu-Eleven – Member
Actually, on reflection – maybe an audible warning when the left hand indicators go on, like the “caution, this vehicle is reversing”

As Ben_nw just said above it won’t stop people, some are just plain stupid and will put themselves in harms way even when others are trying to stop them from doing so until a policeman arrives on the scene.

So he’s ridden up the inside of a large vehicle past the indicators, stopped where he can’t be seen, and then seemingly expects me to know where he is and what he intends to do

I can’t help but sympathise with the good drivers who have to deal with that type of thing. For a rider to pass along the inside/left side of a lorry WITH its left turn signal ON, is asking for trouble, imo.

Most other road users know not to go down the inside of truck but cyclist still persist in doing so. The answer really is to stay back, a few seconds advantage isn’t worth your life.

Spot on and its brings the topic back to what others are saying ^^ that cyclists really shouldn’t be putting themselves into that position in relation to a vehicle. I agree that education is going to be the biggest effect which is why someone made that video in the first place.

I won’t push the camera thing, but if Ben had a monitor and mirrors, I bet he’d use them all. Looking at a monitor doesn’t exclude using a mirror. Using a camera might actually replace the kerbside mirror if its feild of vision was greater than that of the mirror.

Actually, on reflection – maybe an audible warning when the left hand indicators go on, like the “caution, this vehicle is reversing”
I think that would be worth considering.

but if Ben had a monitor and mirrors, I bet he’d use them all. Looking at a monitor doesn’t exclude using a mirror

Yes, drivers would use them all, but the more things you are looking at and checking, the less often you are checking them, giving people more chance to get where you can’t see them without you noticing.
With regard to having an audible alarm when the indicator is on, in the example I gave above, when reversing with people going behind me, the truck was bleeping away like fury! Some people are just plain stupid.
As I said, I’m glad I don’t have to drive these vehicles in that London very often at all.

Oh, and with regard to replacing the kerb mirror with a wider view camera, I think you would need it in addition to the mirrors. It might fail, but more likely it gets a drop of rain on it rendering it useless. Which comes back to how many things you are trying to look at. Also you are having to (especially in the dark/low light) work out how many cyclists you are seeing. Are the 2 in the camera the same 2 in the wide angle mirror, and is the 1 in the rear view mirror 1 of those 2, or an additional body to keep an eye on. Like so many have said (and without trying to absolve any HGV driver of responsibility) cyclists really do need educating about where is and where isn’t a safe place to be.

This video shows a lot more of the blind spots..
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPkbNFt5NuY[/video]

Actually, on reflection – maybe an audible warning when the left hand indicators go on, like the “caution, this vehicle is reversing”

Yeah, that’d be great, sitting at a junction with 3 or 4 lorries all indicating and voices coming from each one saying “Caution, vehicle turning” 🙄
All you need is a TV ad campaign. Not some massively expensive exercise in fitting mirrors, cameras, sensors, voice warnings etc to every lorry in the UK. A re-jig of the driving test would be useful too but since that involves politics the simplest, cheapest, most cost effective way of saving lives in the short term is to tell the cyclists: STAY AWAY FROM BIG VEHICLES.

I know it can be viewed as “putting the blame” on the most vunerable road user which is wrong but from a simple short term solution, you can then start to implement all the other measures (mostly road re-design).

I know it can be viewed as “putting the blame” on the most vunerable road user which is wrong

I think that that in itself is the problem, we live in a blame culture, where everything is someone else’s fault.

The idea that a road users takes responsibility for their own safety seems a foreign concept to people.

Cyclists are one of the most vulnerable road users, and in a tussle with a multi-tonne vehicle, they probably wont win.

But apparently you can’t say “keep away” from from lorrys etc. at junctions because people can do what they want, when they want, how they want.

There’s no easy solution apart from having dedicated, physically separated spaces for cyclists and motorised transport, but no-one will pay for that.

Educating cyclists would be a good start, but you’ll always get the ones that know better, and frankly, if you can’t figure out for yourself that going up the inside of a lorry turning left is a dodgy idea, then all the education in the world isn’t going make a blind bit of difference.

How can a vehicle be legal to drive if the driver can’t see someone straddling a motorcyclist/cyclist next to him?

😀

First rule of Notbeingkilledonabike Club is

Don’t untertake big vehicles

Second rule of Notbeingkilledonabike Club

is… you get the idea

I was going to post some stuff re. Additional mirrors creating more blind spots/the number of white vans needed to replace an artic etc, but its all been said 🙂

Someone mentioned lowering the driver position like a coach, but then you would lose sight of the trailer when vehicles pulled alongside, even road signs could block your view. higher is better for an overall view of the trailer.

One thing that would help is wide angle mirrors mounted on traffic lights, it allows drivers of large vehicles to see their inside but they are extremely rare in this country.

I can’t work out why they put the cycle super highways on main roads. A3 etc. this seems to bring cyclists into direct conflict with the hgvs that have to use them. To me, it would have made more sense to use slightly smaller roads for the highways, helping to seperate cyclists from the really dangerous vehicles.

I can’t work out why they put the cycle super highways on main roads. A3 etc. this seems to bring cyclists into direct conflict with the hgvs that have to use them. To me, it would have made more sense to use slightly smaller roads for the highways, helping to seperate cyclists from the really dangerous vehicles.

The problem is smaller roads have more junctions, most accidents happen at junctions, therefore putting cycle paths on smaller roads can actualy be worse. This is why I refuse to use shared pavements where they cross junctions/driveways, but will use them for example on the A66 in Middlesbrough which is a DC and has very few junctions (and is full of trucks heading to/from Teesport).

That and people will always take the easiest route, no point putting a cycle path on a road cyclists don’t use, they’d just continue using the most direct (usualy biggest) road.

You could ban all vehicles over a certain weight from turning left in cities, but then it would block up cities as they would need to turn right across traffic,

or fit wide angle fish eye mirors to all traffic lights, im sure Boris is already running a trial of this idea.

All truck drivers have car licences and most will have ridden a bike at some point in their lives, very few car drivers and cyclists have hgv licences so that puts us hgv drivers in the position of seeing things from all angles, so why not level the playing field by making everybody who takes driving lessons spend an hour in a truck simulator as part of the requirement to passing the car test. It doesn’t have to be part of the test itself but could be used as a compulsary educational session to allow other road users to get an idea of what you can and can’t see or do in an hgv. One of the problems with the driving test is that you are only required to show that you can drive a car to a minimum standard, and not to show that you are aware of what other types are road users can/can’t/see/ or do.

7 seconds into that video and I can clearly see inside the bottom left of the mirror there is something there that needs to be taken into account.

Not trying to blame anyone. I myself would never get into that kind of proximity with something that big in the first place. That’s what inexperienced cyclists should be taught/need to learn.

Theres a simple action that we, as cyclists, can take to mitigate this risk and take control of the situation back into our own hands, by not putting ourselves in danger.

Think this is pretty much it.. Doing this will keep me alive if the artic has no mirrors, no cameras, no beeping warnings, no indicators, steamed up windows in the cab or ones covered up by the confederate flag, the driver rolling a ciggy and playing with a sat-nav….

Its what I can do to keep myself alive rather than hang out in the killing zone hoping that the right thing will happen.

With the best will in the world (and the drivers comments on here back this up), you can be in the legally right position and dead. As I said earlier, on the road I don’t usually mind what the HWC states, I’ll make a judgement and take action on what I see going on and as we know, we can argue the toss afterwards…

Too many cyclists are lemmings.

Sorry if this is off track, just to add a point… the video’s that cyclists have posted rightly show the mix of all sorts of traffic and junctions often don’t run to the HWC or even the Law… It made me smile with the video cyclist who was shouting all the car reg plates and almost gave himself a heart attack… Some of the incidents were incredibly predictable as to what was not going to happen around car/bike coming togethers…

Its the same basic thing with the trucks and stuff at lights… Have a think, pay attention, make decisions on what you see and stay healthy.

How can a vehicle be legal to drive if the driver can’t see someone straddling a motorcyclist/cyclist next to him?

Realman 😀

Haha. Motorcycle* / Cycle!!!

Edit: now got the chortles at the thought of someone straddling a power ranger motorcyclist in the side view mirror.

uselesshippy – Member

Donk, unfortunately trucks are a necessary evil. Everything you buy, use or sell, at some point moves about on a truck.

no.. trucks are not evil. what is evil is the number of cars driving around. if there were fewer cars and more bikes we’d have more space for bikes. HGV drivers would probably agree….

Reading this thread, all I can see is that HGV’s are a necessary evil and no amount of blind spot mirrors are going to fix the current problems, so it’s the current design of the cab that doesn’t seem to work?!

Legislation should be changed?

pg6:

http://www.transportenvironment.org/sites/te/files/media/2012%2002%20smart%20trucks%20report%20briefing_final.pdf