I think that’s a one dimensional way of looking at US identity. I also think that there is more of an ethos of social/national service (not only in the military sense) in the US than in the UK.

konabunny – Member
the red rose is (also) a symbol of social democratic/democratic socialist parties worldwide.

I have never heard that before, nor has anyone I have asked in the last day, although I’m sure you’re right. I thought it was the Red Flag.

Certainly I never saw it used in Australia. I’m sure I’d have noticed because I would have been puzzled why they were using English symbols.

Up here it’s taken as proof Labour is a wholly Anglocentric party, and folk wonder why “Scottish” Labour don’t use a thistle.

Maybe Labour should re think its symbol. It is a bit like using a certain well known good luck symbol in the wrong place.

MrSmith – Member
there no need to have a go at those Cockerney’s like that. It’s regionism and narrow minded.

epicyclo – Member

Up here it’s taken as proof Labour is a wholly Anglocentric party

I’ve honestly never heard that. I guess I can see why people would think it though

This sums it up for me. Mild swearing. NSFW

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQEcMTSgg5w[/video]

As Irish I’m always bemused by big displays of patriotism/nationalism or whatever, particualrly around sporting events. I find it even more bizarre when it becomes an issue of inter county or inter provincial pride. When I leave the country I feel differently, I’m glad that a we have a very positive reputation pretty much worldwide, and I’m proud to represent that. But in Ireland, surrounded by Irish people…competing to see who can be proudest. It just bemuses me.

konabunny – Member

I think that’s a one dimensional way of looking at US identity. I also think that there is more of an ethos of social/national service (not only in the military sense) in the US than in the UK.

Fair enough – I suppose I meant the US media, and republican portrayed version of US patriotism. I’ve spent enough time in the US to know it as the most diverse place, in every sense, I’ve experienced.

On the sense of social service in the US – that may well be true – and I think it is an individual versus collective/state responsibility thing. Individual action – including socially beneficial activity – is a much stronger concept in US that here – whereas we still closer to the post-war consensus on welfare and healthcare collectivism.

Nowt wrong with Yorkshire. At least it keeps all the miserable, tightfisted bastards in one place.[/img]
Oh I think you’ll find quite a lot of us have spread out to share our unique brand of “happiness” with those unlucky enough not to be Yorkshire.

the miserable, tightfisted bastards

pushing their place of birth as some kind of elevated status amongst their fellow countrymen

Ah, feeling quite proud. Like I say, it ain’t easy 😀

On the sense of social service in the US – that may well be true – and I think it is an individual versus collective/state responsibility thing. Individual action – including socially beneficial activity – is a much stronger concept in US that here – whereas we still closer to the post-war consensus on welfare and healthcare collectivism.

Much higher percentage of the population being church going is a factor too.

Much higher percentage of the population being church going is a factor too

… now that is whole new discussion…!

Proud to be Lancastrian, English, British. I hate the fact that the fascists have commandeered the English flag. I can’t see why we can’t have some sort of celebration day, but the St George thing doesn’t mean anything to me.
Britain may have done some fairly diabolical things in the past and probably still does now and then, but it’s still a (relatively) safe, tolerant and caring society when compared to a lot of others out there. I even like Yorkshire.

I also think that there is more of an ethos of social/national service (not only in the military sense) in the US than in the UK.

The thing you have to remember about the US is that it was created and then had to be effectively ‘marketed’ to the old world – in some cases literally.

Also there’s a bit of selection going on there too. From a typical old world impoverished family, those willing to leave for the New World could have been the ones romanticising the idea of something new, whereas their siblings in similar circumstances might be more attached to the old. So you’d end up with a population containing more people who are already pre-disposed to flag waving, and that would help foster the culture.

Not forgetting the practicalities of creating a new nation – after all, people had to be actively Americanized when they arrived. They were expected to forget their original nationality and fully become American, and no longer German or whatever. I suspect the cultural enthusiasm was fostered in order to make this stick. I’ve seen the idea referred to in a few modern films too.

Then there’s the way that people try hard to justify their decisions – in the same way that people tend talk up the bike they’ve just bought on here to anyone who’ll listen 🙂

“I have never heard that before, nor has anyone I have asked in the last day, although I’m sure you’re right. I thought it was the Red Flag.”

Red flag is a bit more commie. The red rise has been Labour’s symbol since the 80s. I’m not suggesting btw that I was a universally recognized symbol – esp among English people.

They still sing “The Red Flag” at the end of every Labour Party Conference though. Tony Blair always seemed to have a particular problem with spitting out these words :

Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We’ll keep the red flag flying here.

Although to be fair most Labour politicians probably do these days.

I’d agree with a lot of what’s been said here.

National pride is a bit of a funny thing in England. We either get a bit embarrassed about it in case anyone thinks we’re racist, or go OTT the other way. Far as I can tell, the traditional method of celebrating St George’s Day seems to be to buy a red-and-white plastic bowler hat and go out for twelve pints and a fight.

I guess I’m proud to be English, though “grateful” is probably closer. I can’t offhand think of many nations I’d rather have been born to; Canada or the US perhaps, or Australia looks pretty much like here only with nice weather. To be honest though, you’re onto a winner with any English-speaking first-world country. But proud?

Actually, I probably am. The whole “Brits on the piss tour” export is shameful but rather than be embarrassed about it I try to do my bit for international relations when on holiday by proving to the locals that it’s possible to be English and not be a monumental bell end.

We’ve a lot to be proud of, not least a sort of gently affable oddness that’s pretty unique. Plenty of countries produce weapons-grade mentalists (I’m looking at you, America and Japan), but we do loveable eccentric like no-one else. And I quite like that. What other country would have come up with Marmite? France? I don’t bloody think so.

What other country would come up with Marmite?

Bah, incoming pedant alert. It was a man who ‘came up with it’ :

Inventor of Marmite: Justus, baron von Liebig, (born May 12, 1803, Darmstadt, Hesse-Darmstadt [ Germany]—died April 18, 1873, Munich, Bavaria), German chemist.

We are brilliant at adopting and adapting, like magpies we grab stuff and make it our own – From the humble cup of tea to rock music. From fish and chips (C16th Portuguese Marranos immigrants) to curry (the Birmingham ‘Balti’)

Cougar – Moderator

What other country would have come up with Marmite?

Germany, I think?

Konnabunny

Its hard to see that photo and not think of this

“We’re alright, we’re alright, we’re alright”

(funny how the message has hardly changed!)

With every day that passes, Neil looks more and more like the real tenant of no 10 😀

Bah, incoming pedant alert.

Ok then. What other country could give us a cycling forum where we can while away the hours pedantically picking each other up over the inaccuracies of Marmite invention?

(funny how the message has hardly changed!)

Is it ?

EDIT : Sorry that should be : Is it ?!!!

Ok then. What other country (some stuff)?

+1 Agreed- England invented yeasty peasants on bicycles.

I think there was a point in time (1940s < 1980s) when being from the U.K. was the best thing in the world.

Mosquitos, Blue Streak, SR-1, V Bombers, Mods, Rockers, Punks, Jags, Tears for Fears, Ford Cosworth, John Noakes, Glasses repaired with Elastoplast, Paternalistic PMs, Sheene, Thorpe, Graham Hill,Butlins, Workings Mens Clubs, Transport Cafes,Sammy Miller, Bader, Pater Moore, Peter Firmin, Binge drinking, Social Mobility, NHS, Minis, Meccano, James Bond, Excelling at obscure Olympic events ( Ice Dancing FFS)….

Politicians, Americanization (SIC) , Raleigh Choppers and SAW’s Hit factory destroyed all that and now I am as embarrassed to be English, as I would be if I had pissed myself, at an embassy party.

It’s a tricky one…

The truth is, throughout history England have played a very significant role in many of the worlds atrocities such as slavery, genocide of natives and colonial exploitation. Before that, the ruling classes also subjugated the rest of their neighbours in Britain.

To this day, there is still an element of militarized imperial exploitation, as evidenced by wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and topically, intervention in Libya. Much of this is funded by money raised in taxes by the hard work of normal people, who have very little say over such actions.

On top of that, you have to remember that our Monarch, Queen Elizabeth, is also head of state of Canada, Australia, New Zealand and several other Commonwealth Realms and British Overseas Territories.

Very few if any of those countries came under the reign of the British Monarchy without significant bloodshed and subjugation.

However, it ain’t all bad…

We have a strong history of innovation and culture, with many very talented and creative people, be they engineers, writers, artists, musicians, athletes or the myriad of other fields in which people inspire and excel.

And despite all the dark history which keeps those in power wealthy and influential, the vast majority of people are friendly, intelligent and humorous.

There also happens to be some well good bikes and components designed and made in Britain.

So, on balance, though there is much to lament, due to the excesses and greed of the powerful, there is also much to celebrate thanks to the real people that make the nation.

Doesn’t pride imply that you’ve somehow contributed to whatever it is you’re claiming to be proud of? I’m not sure just being born here is enough to make that claim.

Surprised to see JHJ commenting that “Before that, the ruling classes”.

They weren’t ( & aren’t ) a class. They are our Norman overlords and they have hung onto power since 1066

Cameron scores a zero on the Consanguinity Index though Ha-Haa

http://thepeerage.com/p17890.htm

Never thought I’d say this, but Jivehoney for most thoughtful and rounded post in this thread.

I think there was a point in time (1940s < 1980s) when being from the U.K. was the best thing in the world…Social Mobility…

When was the peak of social mobility in the UK?

konabunny – Member
When was the peak of social mobility in the UK?

Not long after the invention of the bicycle… 🙂

Interesting that Samukim points out the fact we have been an occupied country since 1066 and the current notion of English stems from our Norman occupation and not our earlier Anglo Saxon origins, the term english really means nothing as our Anglo Saxon heritage (from which most of us originate) has been largely suppressed (by our Norman overlords – who still control the bulk of land and wealth in this country) or taken over by the far right. Maybe we need an Anglo Saxon day?

the current notion of English stems from our Norman occupation and not our earlier Anglo Saxon origin

Not according to Simon Schama. He wrote that for a couple of hundred years it was Normans vs Saxons but one of the Plantagenets I think decided he was an Anglophile and made a big effort to model his kingdom as an Anglo Saxon place. He reckons this was the start of modern England.

Maybe the Duke of Westminster and all the other Norman overlords would “encourage” the English myth but at the heart of it their wealth and power is built not on Anglo Saxon ideals (or some perception of it) but on good old Norman “taxation” methods. In respect to Simon Scharma’s view of English history it’s just that a view. Even Magna Carta changed little in respect to the real long term control of this nations wealth and power.

I didn’t answer the original question if I am proud of being English, personally I feel nothing in either direction, if you ask me if I am proud of being from the North East of England then yes as I think we have preserved our dignity and sense of self worth in the face of virtually every government trying it’s best to use and abuse us for their benefit.

The North will rise again! 🙂

Proud to be a) from Wessex, b) English, c) British. There have been a number of posts that pretty much sum up my feelings, the one quoting Bill Bryson, Cougar’s, and a couple of others. I love where I was born, in North Wiltshire, and the whole South-west of England, it’s a varied and beautiful part of the country, with centuries of history, like Avebury, Silbury Hill, Brunel’s engineering projects, like Clifton Suspension bridge, the Great Western Railway…
But also, the whole of Britain has a staggering amount of extraordinarily beautiful countryside condensed into a compact landmass, and the history to go with it.

The truth is, throughout history England have played a very significant role in many of the worlds atrocities such as slavery, genocide of natives and colonial exploitation. Before that, the ruling classes also subjugated the rest of their neighbours in Britain.

Along with most of the European countries who invaded Britain, and individually subjugated the natives of other countries and indulged in colonial exploitation. The Romans, for example; colonised most of the country, indulged in imperialistic exploitation of vast tracts of Europe as well, took huge numbers of those subjugated people as slaves…
English people were taken in large numbers from along the south coast as slaves by raiders from North Africa, and it was Arabs and North Africans who were taking vast numbers of their own people as slaves, and selling them to Europeans who were only taking advantage of something which had existed for millennia. Frequently mentioned in the Bible, for example.
It was also the British who passed laws forbidding slavery, and put navy ships to sea to stop others from taking part in the trade.
I’m proud to have an ancestor who was a Royal Marine on a Navy ship doing anti-slavery duties against Portugese slavers running between Africa and Brazil and the Caribbean.
His ship took a Portugese slaver, and he was part of the prize crew. The original crew broke free one night, killed several of the prize crew, hit John Drake, my ancestor over the head with a belaying pin and cut his throat, whereupon “he rose, roaring and bleeding from his hammock, and disarmed them, beating two to death with his bare hands”.
He later saw service in the Crimea, and lived to 82, with ten kids.
Someone to be properly proud of.
And ruling classes in virtually every country you care to think of have subjugated their neighbours, but that doesn’t fit comfortably with your ongoing diatribe against Britain and the Royal Family, does it.
I can certainly think of what’s been going on throughout most of the African continent over the last century, plus across a chunk of Asia; Korea, China, Japan, Tibet, Vietnam…

I’m not sure exactly where your “hammock” is but that sounds quite painful.

Tum-te-tum, don’t mention the Native Americans/Canadians/Aborigines etc in case Count Zero gets uppity and waves a flag and some tat with Charles and Diana on it.

And definitely don’t mention Britain’s role in the formation of Israel, as that is far too recent…

Or the continued special relationship with the USA (well evidenced by the deep links in the GCHQ/NSA network) whose ‘quest for peace’ coincides remarkably with vast profits for the arms and oil industries.

Anyone fancy some Opium? Apparently the yield in Afghanistan is at record levels since allied invasion…

but it wouldn’t be the 1st Opium War…

Not in my name were vulnerable kids procured from care homes and trafficked to be raped by people in positions of power, under the supervision of MI5, with links to the arms industry.

Not in my name are there migrants refugees people drowning due to instability fuelled by MI6 and strategies devised by military top brass, consuming vast amounts of tax payers money to spread death and pollution, sparking hatred and misery.

But as I say, there are many good people in England, Britain and the world as a whole, many of whom have been misled.