Morning all. Apologies for the long post…

Last week I decided to replace the Campag square taper BB on my road bike so that it wouldn’t creak all the way around the 70 mile sportive I had on Sunday.

This is normally something I would do myself, but I didn’t have a Campag square taper BB tool, so I thought I’d just drop it off to the new local LBS to get the job done with no fuss.

After blowing his cheeks out because he wasn’t sure he’d fit the job in because they were flat out (tumbleweeds in the workshop, btw), the workshop manager agreed to replace the BB for me. He then told me it would have to be a Shimano BB as they didn’t have Campag in stock. I queried this, as I have learned the hard way, in my decade or so of building and fixing my own bikes, that Campag and Shimano stuff do not play nicely together.

The workshop manager assured me that as it was only a square taper BB, that it was fine, and something that he did all the time, “no problems”, so, stupidly, I agreed.

The bike was ready by the end of the day at which time the workshop manager told me that the bike was ready, but “pretty much knackered” and needed much work to be done – replacement cassette and chain, and pretty much all of the running gear. Now I replaced the cassette and chain myself a few months ago, and it’s had less than 1000 miles of pretty easy use since. They were grubby, but not stretched, and there was no wear in the teeth of the cassette, so I expressed my surprise at this, and he dropped that subject.

He then told me that because Campag and Shimano BBs are different sizes – “not much, about half a mil or so”, that he had to force it into place, and that I’d “never be able to use a Campag BB again because they wouldn’t fit”. This, apparently, was better because it “would save me money because Shimano is cheaper”. I was a bit astonished, and brought up the fact that we had spoken about precisely this before the work was done.

In the end, because I was late already, I paid, took the bike and left.

I started the Sportive on the Sunday, and my new bottom bracket was blissfully creak-free and things were going swimmingly.

For about four minutes… At which point I attempted to shift up into the big ring under load and the cable slipped out of the front mech.

I pulled over and managed to get everything sorted and I was back on the road again within a few minutes, cursing the fact that I had trusted the bike shop to do a proper job and not checked for stuff like this before I set off. It was at this point that I noticed that the splines of the BB were showing about 5-6 mm more than they used to, and I realised that the old Campag BB must have had a much narrower Q-factor. It looked a bit funny, and I felt that my seat was maybe a few mm higher (I guess my legs may have been splayed out slightly more?) but things were going okay again at this point, so I didn’t think too much about it until my knees started hurting about an hour later, and kept hurting for the rest of the event.

And to cut a long story a bit less long, they are still hurting today! And so is my neck for some reason?

My question is this: What should I do? The bike shop neglected to tighten the bolt holding the cable on the front mech, they misinformed me about the compatibility issue, then replaced my Campag BB with a Shimano one, effectively rendering the bike incapable of running the gear it was originally specced with, tried to upsell by making stuff up about the wear of the chain and cassette, and because the fit of the bike has been changed by a BB with a wider Q-factor, it is now uncomfortable for me to ride longer distances.

Is this my fault for a). getting a bike shop to do something as simple as changing a BB, b). believing the guy when I felt what he was saying wasn’t right, c). accepting the job done and paying for it at the end?

So do I have any options here?

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

Complain – that is shoddy and crap!

Is it a chain or independent shop? I’d be complaining either way but if it was a chain I’d be going higher – store manager or head office.
Sounds like whoever did the work shouldn’t really be working in a bike shop..

I’d complain – tho not everything the mech said is nec wrong (eg 1000 miles CAN wear out a transmission).

I struggle to see how a few mm Q factor would hurt your legs – raised saddle might of course.

Ah, yes, the dreaded Campag only customer.

Shimano and Campag BBs work fine together, he has just fitted a Shimano BB with too long an axle rather than the right size. So yes, you should take it back, but he is also correct about a Shimano BB (and it will save you money, and they’re better).

A good bike shop will also put a bit of tape round the seat post before moving the saddle to put it in the work stand, so he is wrong there too.

There are 2 different standards for square BB. Not sure from top of my head, but if campa and shimano are different, your cranks might be ready for the bin.
I don’t think you should have accepted the job.

Torch his shop

How ever there is a difference….

campag are ISO taper

shimano is JIS taper

mr mechanic hasnt used a shorter taper to make up for the difference by the sounds of it. – how ever its still not ideal/advisable to mix – i would do it on my own bike but never on a customers without first explaining to him the differences and the risk.

Name and shame

http://sheldonbrown.com/bbtaper.html

light reading for you.

Okay, thanks for the thoughts so far – some good info there too!

So it sounds like the issue is not what I thought he was explaining – that the BB shell has been irreversibly changed, but that the splines on the BB are different, and that is why the cranks are now sitting out further. I guess there is a chance that the cranks may have been damaged in the process and that is what he was warning me about. He should have explained this further before the work was done, though.

Also, I hadn’t considered that they might have moved the seatpost for the job. Wish I had taken the bike out for a wee pre-ride checkup blast before the day. Will definitely do that in future.

It’s a chain shop – a very large chain shop, in fact. I’ll write a letter to management, but good to be fully informed before I do.

Any other thoughts very welcome, ta.

Sounds like a proper cowboy outfit and that they’ve just bunged whatever they had to hand in there replaced a campag ISO with a Shimano JIS, it will sit further out either side..

In theory replacing a Campag 107mm with a Shimano 107mm could actually be roughly equivalent to running a BB that’s 8-10mm longer I believe…

So Yes your feet are marginally further apart and it won’t be helping your position on the bike, they may not have touched the seat position at all, sounds like you might be quite sensitive to changes in the pedal’s position.
It also sounds like they tried to adjust the Front mech to accommodate the chainset being further outboard, hence that slipping cable.

The angle on ISO and JIS are the same aren’t they? its the taper lengths that differ. it would be worth taking the cranks off to see just how much he’s “forced” it on there, if you are lucky they won’t have pushed it too far on and deformed the taper in the crank, so you might be able to go back to a Campag BB, or find a shorter shimano replacement…

Did you get the old BB back with the bike? if so it might be worth looking at the fit of the tapers back on that to gauge any deformation…

But the fact that he didn’t just say, “Sorry mate we’ve not got a Campag BB in stock” or offer to order one in (Probably at a higher cost, and more time waiting) speaks volumes. I’d not expect a decent mechanic to “Force” parts together and then tell you about it after the fact…

As for the poor service/communication:

Did you put any time pressure on them to do the job fast and/or cheap?

Paying for and taking the bike away I’m sure they’d call that “Accepting the work”, I’d not expect them to willingly rework/replace at their own expense, but it sounds like you were given some questionable information…

Complain, but be aware you may well not get anywhere, maybe try to find out just how much they “Forced” the cranks on…

Good luck…

Sounds a bit shoddy, not telling you exactly what they were doing before doing it is pretty bad. 2 mins googling told me about the campag/shimano taper difference and the potentially none reversible mix and match they have done.
Worth complaining about? chain store probably yeah, independent and it was the boss who you dealt with then not much going to happen I guess.

Not to take away from the shonky-ness of the work, but I’d always test ride a bike after a workshop visit, especially before a big event, depending on work done the mechanic may have had to move control points or other stuff that you need to check.
Any damage to yourself from riding a badly (ergonomically*) setup bike is down to you I’m afraid, if something is not right stop riding and check the fit, don’t just carry on.

*if they fitted something badly that broke/fell off resulting in a crash then yeah their fault

I think you’re absolutely right – I’d normally double-check everything and have a test ride but just ran out of time this time.

The bike has been pretty well set up for a while and had some longish rides recently, and I guess if I had considered that there might have been a change to setup I would have made some time to do it.

Live and learn, I guess, but I will complain.

Workshop manager. That’s my job title too. (In reality I’m on my own most of the time with one part timer working for me)

The workshop manager assured me that as it was only a square taper BB, that it was fine, and something that he did all the time, “no problems”, so, stupidly, I agreed.

I’d be ashamed to have said this.
There MAY be some way they are compatible but I know that Shimano and Campag have different tapers and I would have made DAMN sure if the implications before ploughing ahead. If they’ve damaged the cranks I’d be creating merry hell. I know the tapers are different, I’m paid to know that. I don’t know precisely what the difference is but I’d have either got a Campag BB in (most likely) or done some thorough research first. That’s not even the slightest bit acceptable.

I hate hearing stuff like this. 😕

For what it’s worth, I’m trying to get into the habit of keeping consumables like brake pads, cables, bottom brackets, headset bearings etc. in stock in my garage, so I buy a spare and replace it when I use. I think this ought to save a lot of sorrow and bike shop hassle if I can get it working…

I would have thought there is a good chance that the cranks are now damaged in some way. I’ve never used Campag cranks but even I know that the tapers are different and you should not mix them.

He really doesn’t know what he’s talking about about and may have cost you a lot more money that if you had bought the Campag BB tool in the first place!

I hate hearing stuff like this.

Me too BD. I feel the poor service from one mechanic reflects on us all.

Sounds very shoddy. I guess they’re sorting of working on the principle that enough people don’t know their onions and they can get away with stuff like this.

If he’s buggered your cranks, though, I’d be escalating this very quickly. Give him one chance to get it sorted (new cranks FOC), or go up the line.

I know the tapers are different, I’m paid to know that.

I don’t know precisely what the difference is 

Isn’t that a contradiction?

I know the tapers are different, I’m paid to know that.
I don’t know precisely what the difference is
Isn’t that a contradiction?

I edited the post and it doesn’t read that well, but no. All I need to know is that they’re different. I’ve known that for years. To do the job properly, I’d fit Campag on Campag.

No it’s not.

He knows they are different – fact. He doesn’t know precisely what the difference is – separate fact.

The important thing is he knows they are different and wouldn’t try to mix and match the two.

I’d not be happy about that at all. Fitting something that causes subsequent damage is not on. i.e not being able to use Campag BBs in future.
Have they damaged the tapers, or even the BB shell threads (English vs Italian)?

As above, ISO and JIS tapers are different, you can make allowances by changing to a shorter/longer axle, but just swapping like-for-like won’t work.

Sheldon Brown explains it in detail…

If this happened in our shop, I’d want to know about it and I’d hope that a customer would come back and complain, so we’d have a crack at putting it right.

he had to force it into place

Now I’m very mild mannered, but I’d have blown up at that. Forcing stuff to fit? Give me my bike right now, I’m not paying you a penny, and if it’s buggered I’ll see you in the small claims court!

As trail rat’s link says, they are different tapers, but you can mix and match without damaging parts (I’ve done so myself).

Good to see the armchair experts out though!

Not to say the mechanic in question has done good work here.

Now I’m very mild mannered, but I’d have blown up at that. Forcing stuff to fit?

Depends on your definition of force, really – square taper BBs do need quite a lot of force to fit, that’s usually applied by tightening the bolt quite tightly.

More important question – did he grease the tapers? 😉

whoops!

speak to the owner / manager in a calm manner and ask for your bike to be put ‘right’ at no further cost

this puts the onus on the retailer…

More important question – did he grease the tapers?

“Have they damaged the tapers, or even the BB shell threads (English vs Italian)?”

unless he used a welder in the process there is no way he managed to fit an english into an italian or vise versa.

but dont let that put out your burning pitchfork.

He really doesn’t know what he’s talking about about and may have cost you himself a lot more money

FTFY.

I don’t know much about BBs and cranks and I’ve no idea what a Q-factor is; but if he’s forced an incorrect component to fit and damaged your existing components in the process (as, seemingly, he freely admits) then I’d expect them to be replacing both the incorrect part and the one they damaged without further charge to yourself.

Cougar +1

He basically told you he’d knackered it up when you collected it. You sound very, very restrained!

martinhutch – Member
Cougar +1

You’re commenting without knowing the subject too?

😛

trail_rat – Member

“Have they damaged the tapers, or even the BB shell threads (English vs Italian)?”

unless he used a welder in the process there is no way he managed to fit an english into an italian or vise versa.

but dont let that put out your burning pitchfork.
No pitchforks, just an ickle cocktail stick.
I bow to your superior knowledge. I’ve never owned a bike with italian threaded bb.

Italian thread is larger – if he’d put a BS bottom bracket into an Italian frame, it’d wobble and fall out.

Do you happen to know the spec of the Shimano bb he put in?
The above is correct. The taper angles are different and also width differ depending on the model of Campag chainset fitted.

The length of the BB spindles will also be different between Campag/Shimano i.e, campag double is 102/111mm and shimano only produce 110/113.

I’d be angry with them for fitting it without fully explaining everything to you. As also said above, anyone dishing out advice in a position of responsibility in a bike shop should know better or say nothing at all.

I’m lazy to re red all of this. Did you agree to have a Shimano BB fitted to a Campag CS? It sounds as if you did knowing that this is a big no no. If you did agree and the mechanic was being honest then the cranks side of things is, to my mind, your fault. Totally stupide for any mechanic to do such a thing but you were warned.
If however, you were not told and didn’t know that they are incompatible then its their problem.
Crappy spannering, ie loose bolts is their fault.
One small consolation is that is unlikely to have done much damage. Might have but maybe not.

Campag tappers are completely different from shimano and if it was a good shop they should now this take it back and get them to fix it for free .

Shimano go down to 107mm but if your chainset was a double the look at genetic or fsa who do 103 in jis taper but still not great. Do the gears work still now the chain line is wrong

As i recall, shimano tapers are short and steep vs campy long and thin… Tightening down campag cranks on shimano bb will likely either crack your arms or come loose increasingly often… Time to kick up stink i’m afraid