Several of the state schools here are as good as or better than the public schools and I know people who have gone public because they did not get into one of the state schools of their choice.

However you still end up paying but by increased housing costs rather than school fees.

fully equipped workshops with CNC machines, welding gear

Our local comp has these.

I think things have moved on in the state sector since the 80s when, I assume, most of us will have gone to secondary school. Hopefully, Gove at al get booted out before they reverse the improvements.

Interestingly, a local private boys’ school closed down a few years ago. The girls’ school who took in the boys, and then went co-ed, is currently making the move to being a state-funded free school. A local private primary is also closing down.

Meanwhile, 97% of children in the state system in out authority are in primaries rated good or outstanding.

noteeth will attest to the situation in Bristol where the middle classes have massively opted out of the state system and the prevalence of private and/or independent schools is widespread. Either that, or they move out to backwaters like Nailsea, Backwell etc (N Som) or Thurnbury, Yate, etc (S Glos) for the “better” state schools in smaller towns. It has left the state system in a bit of a mess – though, to be fair, teachers and schools are busting their asses and things are on the up after a long time in the doldrums. It’s not been pretty at times.

I’d also ban all private education if I were in charge or at least remove charitable status from the schools that have it for a start. As for free schools, they’d be on the list too.

Mike,

How is your applying for specific state schools for your daughter any different to picking one on merit regardless of cost? My point was (before you twisted it) that the apparently bi-modal distribution of incomes in Teesside coupled with cheap house prices meant that the proportion of parents sending their kids to private school appeared higher where I grew up (Derby). Where everyone went to whichever school they were in the catchment area of, and the only private schools were boarding. Even further South in Reading the situations reversed, there’s enough affluent families round here that there are a lot of private schools again.

As for free schools, they’d be on the list too.

Amen, DD. They’d be top of my list. 😈

hot_fiat – Member

Pretty much summed up what I was going to put down. I’m exceedingly grateful to my parents who made huge sacrifices to send my sister and I to private schools.

my sister and me 😉

where the middle classes have massively opted out of the state system and the prevalence of private and/or independent schools is widespread.

Any particular reason?

How would banning private schools alleviate pressure on an already struggling under-resourced state system?

Private and Oxbridge – but that was because North Bucks then had shocking comp schools, whilst South Bucks had decent grammars. I went over the border in to Beds, to a school which was then “direct grant” so actually about 75% of the pupils were fully paid for by the state sector and admitted on merit and potential rather than money. So, for those of you too young to know about Direct Grant schools, you can guess what happened to them…

My kids have gone to the local excellent comp and the eldest now goes across the border to a grammar school in Kent for 6th form. I cannot think of a private school within 25 miles I’d want my kids to go to. And my sons grammar school gets better results than many of them.

My brother lives where I used to, didn’t finish 6th form at the same direct grant school, became an apprentice, did really well and now he paid for his kids to go back to the same school – now fully private and more expensive.

Two friends who went to Eton, send their kids to local comps.

So – no simple answer – it depends on the local schools, the kids (for many sports you are way better in the private sector – look at our Olympians), and the dosh you can afford.

But – it is a real shame this system has developed. So many countries have better systems which ensure quality and appropriate selection and streaming, and a population who generally value education and stop their kids from sabotaging others’ ways up the ladder.

That radley exam is quite an eye opener! Im an engineering graduate, and struggled!!

The other point is we can’t afford the schooling of all the kids who are in the private sector.

And that’s 12 year olds taking them dantsw!

All of those papers are really interesting (several schools post them on their websites). Some of the questions are really well thought out and simply cannot be learned. As you say, bloody difficult for most parents to attempt!!!!

The RS paper would have gone down well here on all three questions!!! Apart from the instruction to “showing you have considered more than one point of view.”!!!

http://www.radley.org.uk/userfiles/file/scholarship/2013/Religious_ethical_general_2013.pdf

The answers would have been better too!!!

unkown – heard it on a Radio 4 programme about a week ago. If I remember rightly, the feature was actually about an article in Tatler Magazine, which I think is advising parents who wouldn’t normally consider state schools to in fact do so. I haven’t seen the article, but I think it was suggesting that some state schools now offer similar standards of education and opportunity to those offered by private schools, and it also made the point that I mentioned above, about socialisation and readiness for the workplace. Pretty sure the firm that the radio feature mentioned was KPMG – now recruiting differently. I take your point above, but I suspect that in certain industries there’s still an ‘old boy’ network working in favour of public school kids. Perhaps this is now being challenged by evidence suggesting that state school kids can make better employees in some key respects?

I went to a state school, with a swimming pool, rifle range, two squash courts and a standalone observatory (really). Grammar schools FTW.

How would banning private schools alleviate pressure on an already struggling under-resourced state system?

Of course, it’s a bit pie in the sky and the practicalities of emptying their accounts (as soon as all the offshore ones can be traced) back into the state system can be sorted out by clever civil servants (hopefully not outside contracted management consultants)…but as an aim towards egalitarianism, what is wrong with the principle?

In Glasgow, the decent private schools are not particularly expensive (provided you’re not sending lots of kids!) at around £8000-£10000 a year.

However, the best state schools (by a country mile) are across the administrative border in East Renfrewshire. A 3 bedroom semi in Giffnock/Clarkston/Netherlee/Newlands etc will cost £100k+ more than elsewhere in Glasgow. Similarly, Jordanhill is about the only decent secondary state school in the city council’s boundary and house prices there are verging on bonkers at the moment.

For one or two child families who can’t afford or justify a whopping great mortgage, £8k a year might not seem so bad for an education at a good private school.

DD, don’t forget you could play with the tax system, if they’re not paying for private schooling they can pay more tax. And you would have more teachers/buildings.

To be honest, I’d consider sending my kid(s) to a grammar school if there was one around. Round these parts though, there seems to be an abundance of private schools (very results driven in some cases) and some state schools which, to be honest, have not impressed me much if their pupils’ behaviour is anything to go by.

However, they have just built a new secondary near my work, so there is hope from that direction.

£8000-£10000

For the average person, that’s what…£12-15k off your gross salary? I know that’s peanuts when you hang about with lawyers a lot, but it’s a fair whack for even somebody just slipping into the higher tax rate. 🙂

And you would have more teachers/buildings

Indeed…some very nice buildings. I’m sure some of the teachers can be taken too, as long as they’re properly qualified of course and suitably re-trained to deal with ordinary humans.

I went. It was full of the thick sons of “struggling” farmers. And the odd oik like me.

Would I send my daughter? Maybe, if I feel a combination of the very good state schools in my area and parental influence aren’t enough*, then she might go.

But in spite of that, I have a strong sense of agreement with miketually’s position.

Which makes me a hypocrite, I know. Sue me.

*I didn’t have the former, and the latter didn’t assist my pathological laziness

For the average person, that’s what…£12-15k off your gross salary? I know that’s peanuts when you hang about with lawyers a lot, but it’s a fair whack for even somebody just slipping into the higher tax rate.

I fully appreciate that, but my point was more in relation to the options which parents in Glasgow are faced with if they want to send their kids to a good school.

£8k per year over 6 years in fees for private schooling, or stump up an extra £100k on a house to secure a spot in a good state school. (EDIT: or I suppose you could rent for a while?)

For many, the affordable option may be 6 years of fees.

I went to a not brilliant state school (read: rubbish) and came in the top quarter of my class at university (I was definitely in the minority as a state schooled kid). Saved my mum a fortune 😉

my daughter went to state school and has done fine. In fact she is the News Editor of the Edinburgh Tab which is in the first link, republishing the Bristol story 🙂

State school, learn to live in the real world, that’ll be the one you’re working in when you leave. That said state schools round here are pretty decent.

Also watched the TV shows on Eaton & Educating Yorkshire, for me the passion from the teachers in the state school stood out way above those at Eaton. Although I believe that comes from the head master.

deadlydarcy – Member
.but as an aim towards egalitarianism, what is wrong with the principle?

Nothing except that take away the “control” experiments and you would have no idea what sensible people would do in education when free from meddling by ‘here today, gone tomorrow” (RIP Sir Robin) politicians like our dear friend Mr Gove.

That has to be too big a price to pay, surely?

I went to a private school, but hated every second of it. Not clever enough? We’ll leave you behind then. Dyslexia? What’s that? We don’t have students with that problem here.

OTOH, my wife went to the local comp, and wished she had the opportunity to attend a private school. Too clever? We’ll leave you to it then…. (she’s a clever cookie…)

State school, learn to live in the real world, that’ll be the one you’re working in when you leave.

Depends on what world you’re preparing your kids to live/work in though. I’ve no idea what most of my colleagues are on about half the time, definitely feel like I’m an intruder at times 🙂

I always thought supper was banana on toast just before bed.

£8k per year over 6 years in fees for private schooling, or stump up an extra £100k on a house to secure a spot in a good state school. (EDIT: or I suppose you could rent for a while?)

For many, the affordable option may be 6 years of fees.

Aye, I don’t disagree. Isn’t there a report somewhere that shows how much your average house price goes up in an area with a good state school to equate with roughly what you might shell out for a private education for your child? (I’m prob making that up…possibly something I heard here in Brizzle…but you get the gist). I suppose the people with the house end up with a house in a desirable location rather than an entitled little arsehole* who will, albeit, probably able to look after them well when it comes to turfing them into a good old folks home. Life…it’s all balancing one pay-off against another. 😀

*ourmaninthenorth excepted.

Nothing except that take away the “control” experiments and you would have no idea what sensible people would do in education when free from meddling by ‘here today, gone tomorrow” (RIP Sir Robin) politicians like our dear friend Mr Gove.

Hey thm, this is a revolution I’m talking about. There are plenty of options when it comes to how much I’m prepared to let short term politicians mess about with my child’s education y’know.

I went to a pretty rough state school but turned out pretty well…uni, good job, no criminal record etc…but it could easily have been very different.

A number of very good friends ended up in jail (some serious crimes too) or dead due to drug abuse very soon out of school. These were guys I considered very good or best friends. Luckily I avoided it and I can only put it down to my parents keeping me VERY active in the evenings and at weekends.

I’d seriously consider private school if I had kids but it would really depend on what the local state school was like.

My three went. Their view now is that it was worth every penny and they had a great time. Loads of great adventure and sport with intensive education thrown in. Sometimes one to one.. It made the most of whatever ability the had. My experience as a parent was that success or failure often revolved around the parents attitude. Children have to want to go for the right reason – their development. Private schools don’t guarantee success. Speak to your children and see what the most appropriate education route is.

There’s a world of difference between different public schools – something worth bearing in mind. Single sex/traditional/super-posh/cadet force/boarding etc vs mixed/progressive/Quaker/liberal/day school – the various types can have very different atmospheres, pupil bases and ethos from each other.

Mikal Gove nose all about edukashun, (he is in charge of it int he) an he is sending ‘is kids to a state skool, so they must be good….

If you are not 100% behind the idea and the support the school the children will pick up on it. That will undermine their confidence and failure and returning home follows shortly. When you drop them off for the first time you and your wife will be up beat. Full of enthusiasm. You can both have a sob together later not as you drop them off.

Location, Location, Location.

My wife is a teacher by profession but one thing we did when our daughter was born was to move to a nicer (more expensive) area because the schools are better.

Our daughter and son went to nursery from being babies and I think the earlier you get your children into to some form of routine / teaching establishment the better.

Nursery isn’t cheap but again you get some that are better than others. What suits one child may not suit another. We moved our son into the nursery of a fee paying school and it did him the world of good.

Our daughter is in a state school in YR6 and 80% of the class are that far ahead that they have had to bring in extra tutors to assist them with the higher level work they need. Is this a sign that all the kids are really clever or just a very good school? A combination of the two I think.

In answer to the original question if I had the money I would pay for my children’s education. We do now with extra maths for our daughter, not because she struggles but to give her the best possible start

As others have said it’s finding the right school for each child that counts. Our daughter has passed an entrance exam to a local (ish) high school but we have to wait until 1st March to see if she has a place now.

There’s a world of difference between different public private schools

Not all private schools are ‘public’ schools. Otherwise, spot on! 🙂

Hmm, I always worry that this discussion will be influenced by people having difficulty separating their emotions, personal class prejudices and the politics of envy. Judging buy the thread so far I am right..

My kids are in a non selective private school. we throw every spare penny at their edumaction, my house is falling to bits because of it, and I have to make personal sacrifices to make sure it happens.
So I feel I can give you an honest appraisal as I came from a pretty poor background myself:

Private school Con’s

Crap resources
Crap buildings
Crap teachers
Posh People

Private School Pro’s

Small Class Sizes
Parents who do not agree with their children when it comes to rebelling against teachers
Pupils who are motivated to work hard by their parents.
Those posh people seem dead friendly and helpful

The pro’s seem to have a way more powerful effect than the con’s.

IE small class sizes and motivated kids appear to work wonders, the rest is all a load of window dressing and crap.
Which is why when the state sector (ie govt) come up the latest initiatives to improve education, unless it is for more teachers to reduce class sizes or better parent/teacher/pupil communications then I always think it is bunkum.

IE small class sizes and motivated kids appear to work wonders, the rest is all a load of window dressing and crap.

Save yourself a load of cash and move to Elgol. Last time I checked the class size was 3 and there are very few distractions 🙂

Bah, cold..
anyway I think you need critical mass for me ideal size is 12-18 with a teach and two classroom assts. If you had this, the kids could be in a portacabin with one pencil and a zx spectrum, and still get a great education..

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/sep/19/musical-prodigy-cystic-fibrosis

The passion of Eton’s staff in this case might suggest that passion exists in lots of different schools. The head of Music was brilliant in this case.

I went to boarding school. Left in ’09 and fair to say the school turned me around.

I used to go to state school until half way through year 10. I was awful. The school had rubbish sport facilities, disinterested teachers and some rough peers that could make life living hell. I was failing all my GCSE related studies and only had sights on joining the Marines.

I was sent to boarding school as my parent relocated to Germany and the company offered to pay fees as I was mid GCSEs. I hated the idea of going to some posh school. I grudgingly agreed to go and I’m so happy that I did. I was in a boarding house of 50 people and it was like a family. A tough few weeks at the beginning but made friends quickly. Teachers and housemaster were unbelievably supportive. I never experienced anything like it. I even started enjoying classes. Small classes and the quality of teaching was like night and day. The fact that no one (really) misbehaved themselves made a huge difference too.
Extracurricular activities were incredible. Any sport you wanted to do was possible.

Living at school made me grow up a huge amount as well. I got so much freedom. I used to go on huge cycles after school and the teachers encouraged it! There was no big ugly fence around the whole school with gates and concrete everywhere and that made a big difference. We had a pub at school for sixth formers so you could drink from 16 onwards- that made a difference to how people treated booze too.

Those saying ‘its a bubble and not the real world’, wrong! I did 10 times more real life related things there. We did factory visits, work placements and more. Plus we had to manage our own pocket money at the tuck shop/pub/visits. We had to sort/wash our own clothes. When you go to uni, you can really tell who went to boarding school. They are much more mature and handle themselves better.

Looking back at it, it was an amazing and life changing journey for me. I’ve now ended up doing a BSc and an MSc at a Russell group universities and got a graduate job at the end of it. It was all down to the boarding school. The state school gave me absolutely nothing.

Probably sounds soppy but it’s my experience. It’s the number one thing I want for my kid (if I ever have one).

Edit: the state school was/still is classed as the best in the county.

Hmm, I always worry that this discussion will be influenced by people having difficulty separating their emotions, personal class prejudices and the politics of envy. Judging buy the thread so far I am right.

Yes, it would appear you are right, given that you go on to list “posh people” in your con’s (sic). 😀

Also, not sure about the crap buildings, resources and teachers comment! My place had some fantastic assets in all three of those categories.