Going to Assemble a ghetto headset press by tomorrow..and headset press time into a carbon frame? Anything i need to know about? Do’s and dont’s?

.. I’ve done 1 or two in my previous bike with aluminum frame by whacking with rubber mallet..but the idea doesn’t seem to be friendly with the carbon frame, i think.

Last 2 I did were with a park workshop press. Make sure the things you are using to press sit right to avoid damaging the headset. Get it straight, do one at time and take your time.

Similar to this im gonna build:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HEADSET-PRESS-INSERTION-TOOL-AT-LOW-LOW-PRICE-/111271973024?pt=UK_SportsLeisure_Cycling_BikeLocks_SR&hash=item19e85390a0

Do i need to grease to make it easier?

the guys over here http://www.santacruzbicycles.com/en/nomad-carbon say grease. Some more here http://forums.mtbr.com/bike-frame-discussion/carbon-frame-build-grease-paste-821379.html

Cheers grease it is 😉

Done my last few carbon headset presses with a gentle version of your rubber mallet technique.
I actually prefer this than the press I have as it sits inside the cups, never sets them straight and generally mucks it up.
I can control and feel the persuasive force of a mallet better than the headset press tool I have access to 😉

On the grease vs carbon friendly paste.. NO grease.. use carbon paste.

Grease CAN attack SOME epoxies.. whilst it may not affect SC’s expoxy.. your frame may be different.

Pretty sure my 2012 Scott frames had hang tags informing no petroleum based grease.. 2013 and 2014 frames.. Scott kindly press the cups in the factory!

Ok.. That is interesting Tacx carbon paste it is

Grease CAN attack SOME epoxies

Until a few days ago I would’ve thought similar, but have a read of THIS – seems resistant to most things.

From Santa Cruz

Should I grease the headset cups when I install them?

Yes, we recommend this. Do not use the Carbon Assembly Compound on the headset, as it will make it more difficult to remove from the frame.
from the MTBR link above

Grease will not delaminate carbon. I’ve asked several manufacturers if there were any special requirements in building and maintaining carbon frames. Never was there any mention of grease degrading carbon. Not sure where this myth started, but it may be the stickers on some seatposts warning of its use. This has more to do with the seatpost slipping than it does with it delaminating.

Trek officials coached me on proper installation of bottom bracket bearings in Trek’s latest Madone frames with carbon bearing cups and we used liberal amounts of grease, of almost any sort. I’ve always done the same thing in carbon headset cups.

So what is your basis for using assemble paste (a friction compound) over grease

Epoxy is generally very good for chemical resistance which is why some fume cabinet bases are made of epoxy and we epoxy coat metals etc.

One problem is thread locks and anti-seize compounds as the former degass during cure and the latter may have metals in them that react with the carbon.

There is also a risk I guess of toughened epoxies that contain thermoplastics which may be affected. Am hypothesising here and don’t know enough about greases to know what is in different types but I do know that some greases and anti-seize compounds can swell rubbers and other thermoplastics and elastomers.

My opinion would be you need to use some sort of lubrication. I would not use a gritty carbon assembly paste as this will add friction, introduce hard foreign bodies into a tight tolerance fitting and could cause damage to the carbon fibre on insertion.

I would just go with a nice gentle but high load grease like Weldtites red PTFE stuff or the white PTFE grease from the more expensive make (forgotten the name), just because I know they are pretty inert. But generic car stuff will probably be fine (but its your choice). I would also use an inert anti-seize like the shimano or park (or the Loctite ceramic which is probably similar to the shimano).

It’s not really worth stressing over as most people have a suitable lube in their tool box and if not the red Weldtite stuff is cheap enough and you can get it with a nice gun.

Another safe option could be silicone based which I suspect is the base for most carbon assembly greases or something like Castrol red rubber grease.

Can i just use copper grease to avoid seizing up?

The last 6(?) I’ve done across 3 frames have involved a block of wood and a hammer. They’ve all had metal inserts so no carbon paste needed.

Petroleum based greases can react with the resin in Carbon frames and damage them, most greases sold for bike use are not petroleum based but I’d be very careful as it’ll be costly error if you use the wrong stuff.

Park Tool – PPL Polylube & White Lightning Crystal grease are two that I know are tested to be carbon safe but I’m sure there are others out there.

DO NOT USE CARBON ASSEMBLY PASTE it may be ‘carbon friendly’ but it’s entire purpose is to increase grip between surfaces when assembling components to specified torques. You’ll have to use huge pressure to get the cups in and if you do get them in, they’re not coming out ever again.

Covering a headset with assembly paste and then attempting to fit them with a hammer? I can think of few worse ways to go about this, especially with a lightweight carbon frame, the mind boggles.

I didn’t use any lube when I put a headset in my carbon frame – to be honest, if it’s well made it shouldn’t really need any. If you’re particularly bothered put the headset in the freezer before fitting and it should almost drop in.

Grease is not essential but is a good idea for 3 reasons.

A: It reduces the force needed to insert the cups, lowering the amount of crushing force placed on the frame. It also reduces the amount of force that you will need to remove the bearing at the end of it’s life.

B: It helps prevent water ingress, although any excess will attract grit and should be removed.

C: It lessens the chances of creaks developing, this applies more to BB’s than headtubes but the same rules apply.

I didn’t use any lube when I put a headset in my carbon frame – to be honest, if it’s well made it shouldn’t really need any. If you’re particularly bothered put the headset in the freezer before fitting and it should almost drop in.

Tolerances on carbon fibre parts is nothing like that of a nicely machined piece of metal. Although carbon does have a bit more give which can make up for it but also make a good fit even more critical (either sloppy or too tight it causes failure).

the above reasons for using grease are very true and highlight things a lot of people forget about – easy removal and stopping water getting in. If water gets in you will get corrosion. Corrosion will also stop removal. Aluminium and carbon really do not get on well and on insertion you will probably shave a bit of the epoxy off in places and have bare carbon to bare aluminium (surface layer also gets scratched by the carbon). Not using something to act as a lubricant and barrier is pretty bad practice.

Do:

Don’t

What is your source for this?

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/chemical-resistance-epoxy-d_786.html

Butane gas Excellent (temperature < 72oF, 22oC)
Diesel Fuel Excellent (temperature < 72oF, 22oC)
Gasoline Excellent
Hydraulic Fluid Excellent
Jet Fuel Excellent
Kerosene Excellent
Naphtha Excellent
Oil – Castor Excellent
Soaps Excellent

1st hand from Damon Rinard, Cervelo’s head of engineering.

When the world’s most respected bicycle carbon engineer tells me to be careful what grease to use, I tend to listen.

He did say that the vast majority of greases and frames will be fine, but the getting it wrong will kill the frame so better to be safe than sorry.

Hence my advice above listing several greases that have been tested with carbon and are verified as non-reactive.

I only have these right now, so which grease?

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/park-tool-polylube-1000-grease-ppl1/rp-prod13883

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/weldtite-lithium-grease/rp-prod5959

And a halfords copper grease..

The Park PPL is one of the greases I listed as I know it’s carbon safe. I don’t have any experience with the Weldtite or Halfords grease so couldn’t comment.

Still not enough, sorry. He could be wrong, or be reciting wrong information, and you could have misunderstood him.

CF is not a rare material, and neither is grease. I want to see a document detailing the exact compositions that will ‘attack’ CF.

CF is exposed to all kinds of oil and grease in the course of it’s use, on all kinds of items, some much more critical than bike frames. This stuff will have been researched, and probably published somewhere.

probably published somewhere.

Where’s Macavity when you need him…

🙂

Not related to the grease/paste discussion, but its also suggested that you leave the headset cups in the freezer overnight so they contract slightly – Is that just myth or could it really make enough of a physical difference to be noticeable?

A quick Google gives the following chart…

http://www.chomarat.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/CHO-3265-Chemical-Resistance-Guide.pdf

Although I’m not sure what their carbon grid is…

I probably didnt illustrate properly.. The carbon headtube has a metal inside for the headset fixture..the headset does not really touch the carbon frame..but that metal thingy already placed inside the headtube of the carbon frame..same goes for the BB.

Still not enough, sorry.

If the 1st hand word of quite possibly the most respected carbon frame engineer on the planet isn’t enough for you then I guess I must give up.

Different frame companies use different resins and different greases have different ingredients, most play nicely together, a small minority may not.

The advice from Damon was ‘better safe than sorry’ and when someone with that background gives me advice I tend to heed it. When a tube of grease that’s been tested specifically for use on carbon costs a whole £4.99 it seems somewhat of a false economy to do otherwise.

That was me. More than 0.02mm difference for a 30 degree temperature drop with a 1 1/8″ cup (oversize will be more). Not a huge amount, but that’s plenty enough to make a difference.

If it’s an aluminium insert (like a lot are) then less to worry about but you still want grease of some sort and you may as well use something you can slap on liberally and then wipe of the excess. It’s not something to get hung up on, just use a bit of common sense.

As for copper grease (mentioned above after I said don’t use it). I don’t think it has any place on a bike. It should only really be used with steel to steel which limits it’s use on a bike and it is generally quite messy. I work on my bikes in the house where it is nice and warm and don’t want parts with copper grease on lying around. I use it on car bolts as it is cheap but on car brakes I use more inert stuff like you get from Mintex and Pagid for £1.99 a tube. Remember aluminium is less noble (only just but it is) than copper so will corrode, hence a very good reason not to use it on aluminium brake calipers along with it’s softening effects on rubber seals (eg drum brake slave cylinders).

With regards to putting cups in the freezer remember to keep a tissue handy to wipe off the condensation that forms.