How far is that teddy gonna get thrown!? 😛

about as far as it did last time?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21312004

really its an interesting legacy of christianity(old testament)/judaisms/islams shared origin as a desert religion

Anyone who thinks it’s fine not to stun animals before being bleed out on an industrial basis deserves everything they get in my opinion.

There’s a good reason it’s illegal (well, to those not playing the race/religion card).

christianity(old testament)

Does not compute. The Old Testament and the Torah are closely aligned. The New Testament is where Christianity is all about.

the koran is word for word same as old testament in places as well

old/new its all in the bible right?

IBFL…

How far is that teddy gonna get thrown!?

Depends what it’s name is…

Anyone who thinks it’s fine not to stun animals before being bleed out on an industrial basis deserves everything they get in my opinion.

There’s a good reason it’s illegal (well, to those not playing the race/religion card).

How do you think animals have been slaughtered throughout human history? What if you lack the means to stun animals?

I think you should read up on Halal and Kosher butchering, before making such stupid statements.

Whatever your own personal beliefs, the fact is that people have been deceived, and it’s that deception (unlike the perfectly legal slaughter of animals) which is really quite disgusting. I hope those responsible are found, and suitably sanctioned.

What if you lack the means to stun animals?

Don’t kill them, then?

We’ve had the ‘ability to stun animals’ for years. What a bizarre thing to say. We’ve done plenty of things throughout history; 500 years ago we were still burning witches.

As a veggie I’ve no issues with people killing animals for food. I see no earthly reason why we have to torture them in the process.

I think you should read up on Halal and Kosher butchering, before making such stupid statements.

Well, in his support – I’ve stood in the room three feet away from the operator while its been done

and bearing in mind that I’ve killed hundreds of animals in the course of my own work, and been present for the death of many more – frankly, I think that unstunned halal and kosher is **** barbaric, its a travesty that we have not banned it.

Depends what it’s name is…

Let’s say for the sake of measuring your level of pedantry the teddy in this instance is called ‘Pedro’…Now what?

before making such stupid statements.

😯

Stop frothing at the mouth and wind your over-stretched neck in lad.

Don’t kill them, then?

We’re naturally omnivorous. In many parts of the world, meat is a vital source of protein. Ergo, we need to kill animals.

We’ve had the ‘ability to stun animals’ for years. What a bizarre thing to say. We’ve done plenty of things throughout history; 500 years ago we were still burning witches.

Total non-sequitur. Pointless statement.

As a veggie I’ve no issues with people killing animals for food. I see no earthly reason why we have to torture them in the process.

‘Torture’? Have a read up on the requirements of Halal and Kosher butchering. Specifially the bits that relate to ‘saving the animal from suffering as much as is possible’.

Then go and have a word with cats; they like to play with their quarry before killing it.

I’ve stood in the room three feet away from the operator while its been done

I’ve witnessed Halal slaughter in a countries and places where the kind of equipment used to stun large animals is not available. I didn’t see the animals suffering too much. They were dead within seconds. Contrast this to the ‘assembly line’ nature of an abattoir, where all the other animals get to hear the terrified noises of those slaughtered in front of them. I’ve been in an abattoir and seen animals defecating in fear, and injuring themselves trying to escape.

Seeing both sides gives you a better perspective.

Stop frothing at the mouth and wind your over-stretched neck in lad.

Why not actually get involved in the discussion; after all, you started this thread. For what reason, may I ask? Was it to actually discuss the issues (something you so far have failed to do), or was there another reason?

stupid statement or not it was followed by a crass smiley

and just to clarify, halal/kosher is cruel imo though im not sure that animal welfare is much better in large parts of the globe, china for example has a bad rep
the horsemeat trade here has shown up how poorly regulated the industry is, who know what else goes on

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQOKQ__3vQw&oref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DHQOKQ__3vQw&has_verified=1[/video]

I didn’t see the animals suffering too much.

God help us! 🙄

I think that unstunned halal and kosher is **** barbaric, its a travesty that we have not banned it.

Infant circumcision anyone?

I’ve witnessed Halal slaughter in a countries and places where the kind of equipment used to stun large animals is not available.

What, they don’t have access to a poleaxe?

I mean, they’re hardly 21’st century high cost technology are they…

Infant circumcision anyone?

Male or female? After all, one is socially acceptable, the other is an evil throwback to past times and is banned…

ahem!

Why not actually get involved in the discussion; after all, you started this thread. For what reason, may I ask? Was it to actually discuss the issues (something you so far have failed to do), or was there another reason?

Still rabidly frothing I see…

Like the spoilt bratty-child you are go and stand in the corner until you have learnt how to behave and control your anger.

Then expand on how you think the perpetrators should be punished.

I didn’t see the animals suffering too much.

So their suffering was within the limits of what you consider acceptable then? Why didn’t you say so before – that makes it all ok.

pork is delicious, any religion that doesn’t like pork isn’t the religion for me.

Killing of animals in the halal way is vile and abhorrent. How we, as modern country allow this to happen is beyond me. It should be banned immediately

Anyone who supports this ask yourself one question. If you were to be killed right now and you had a choice of your neck being slit or a single shot to the head, what would you choose and why?

We’re naturally omnivorous. In many parts of the world, meat is a vital source of protein. Ergo, we need to kill animals.

So? We don’t live in those countries. I haven’t eaten meat in over two decades and I’m doing ok. In the UK we kill animals by choice because, well, we like meat. It’s far from a ‘need’ at all.

Pointless statement.

You started it.

the bits that relate to ‘saving the animal from suffering as much as is possible’.

That may well be the intention, and halal butchery may well have been the best means of achieving that in the annals of time. But not in the UK, and not today.

Then go and have a word with cats; they like to play with their quarry before killing it.

And you pull me up for a non sequiteur! How is that in any way relevant to anything? Are you a cat?

I’ve been in an abattoir and seen animals defecating in fear, and injuring themselves trying to escape.

So that needs addressing too, of course. Your argument is essentially, “this method of torturing animals is better than that method of torturing animals”; mine is “hey, how about not torturing them at all?”

How we, as modern country allow this to happen is beyond me.

It’s that religious privilege thing that people were arguing a few days back didn’t exist.

Houns – Member
Anyone who supports this ask yourself one question. If you were to be killed right now and you had a choice of your neck being slit or a single shot to the head, what would you choose and why?

Don’t be so utterly ridiculous. I could turn that question around, why do you think industrial slaughter processes are so much better for welfare?

My uncle runs a slaughterhouse. In the last few years he has had to introduce halal because as an independent it’s what most of his customers now ask for.

He hates it- it’s very upsetting for his staff compared to more modern methods, the animals clearly suffer more and it’s very messy and gory. However without it he’d not have a livelihood. I have absolutely no time for anyone that thinks it’s an acceptable way to kill animals now more humane alternatives exist.

As for not eating pig, I know it’s religion and that, but get over yourselves 🙄

I agree with cougar, the whole journey needs to be improved. However my point and question about the death still stands and is not ridiculous at all

there was a documentary years ago, possibly horizon or something, about a woman who could talk to cows, think she was on the autistic spectrum somewhere and she made a decent living by being employed by big cow places in america to redesign their systems to make the experience less scary for the cows as they were being led up to be stunned/killed.

EDIT –

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/temple.shtml

this is the woman

So their suffering was within the limits of what you consider acceptable then? Why didn’t you say so before – that makes it all ok.

Personally, yes. A quick, deep cut to the jugular and it’s all over in a matter of seconds.

Killing of animals in the halal way is vile and abhorrent. How we, as modern country allow this to happen is beyond me. It should be banned immediately

Some interesting reading for you sensitive souls:

http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/files/Animal_Welfare_0.pdf

Hopefully this will allay some of your fears and unfounded prejudices.

Anyone who supports this ask yourself one question. If you were to be killed right now and you had a choice of your neck being slit or a single shot to the head, what would you choose and why?

What if a gun and bullet isn’t available?

Your argument is essentially, “this method of torturing animals is better than that method of torturing animals”; mine is “hey, how about not torturing them at all?”

I’m talking about killing animals for food, not ‘torturing’ them. have a read up on the definition of ‘torture’.

What if a gun and bullet isn’t available?

Again, this is moot. In the UK at least, availability of tools to comply with legislation is a non-issue.

In some far-flung third world country where the options are halal butchery or punching it in the face for an hour, sure, it’s obviously preferable. But here, it’s utterly irrelevant unless we’re sourcing cheap meat from those countries, which we shouldn’t be if their practices don’t comply with EU law.

I’m talking about killing animals for food, not ‘torturing’ them. have a read up on the definition of ‘torture’.

Wow, you’re resorting to semantics as a defence now? That didn’t take long. Ok, try “inhumanely killing” or “butchering with unnecessary, avoidable cruelty” instead. I was just trying to be succinct and you know full well what I mean.

Halal and Kosher slaughter complies with UK and EU law. It is not considered to be ‘inhumane’ or to cause ‘unnecessary suffering’. That discussion is dealt with. So can we now move on, to the real issue at steak, which is that the express wishes of UK citizens have been ignored, and that laws have been broken in deceiving them?

Because that would be a bit more useful than people ignorantly ranting about things they don’t fully understand.

As for not eating pig, I know it’s religion and that, but get over yourselves

I know! I’m going to have a prosciutto ciabatta for lunch. 🙂

I’m not meant to eat shellfish. Trouble is, I’m too selfish.

The really retarded bit of all this is, as thx said, it’s rooted in good intentions, you’re supposed to respect the animals that provide us with food and minimising suffering is what halal is supposed to achieve. In the modern Western world, techniques and technology have improved in the last fifteen hundred years, but aspects of religion haven’t been as dynamic. Perhaps if they’d had the foresight to write “… or better” in their holy books we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

I’m all for multiculturalism and integration, but I really despise the idea that established laws can be conveniently ignored if you don’t like them. That’s a little scary. I wonder how far I’d get drinking communion wine in Saudi?

We have EU imposed animal cruelty laws which are waived for religious reasons. IMHO if your superstitions are in conflict with law, it’s really not the law that needs to change.

Halal and Kosher slaughter complies with UK and EU law.

No it doesn’t. It’s exempt.

It is not considered to be ‘inhumane’ or to cause ‘unnecessary suffering’.

That would appear to be a matter of opinion rather than fact.

to the real issue at steak

Lets not bring cows in to this eh?

No it doesn’t. It’s exempt.

It is not ‘unlawful’. End of.

That would appear to be a matter of opinion rather than fact.

Of course. As would yours, mine and and others’ statements on here.

So, this illegal deception thing..

It’s not unlawful, no. That’s not the same thing as being compliant with the law. An exception is made; the law isn’t enforced if they play the god card. You can handwave it, but it’s an important distinction.

Of course. As would yours, mine and and others’ statements on here.

Excellent, glad you changed your mind.

So, this illegal deception thing..

There’s two issues isn’t there.

a) food contains things we weren’t told about, like the horsemeat thing earlier. Whether this is “deception” or accidental cross contamination isn’t clear – the report said “traces of DNA” rather than “slabs of pork” so it’s perhaps more likely to be the latter?

b) this causes a particular problem in contrast to horsegate, in that it’s something its target audience choose not to eat. It’d be like finding lamb in my veggieburgers.

So, this illegal deception thing..

I’m afraid you’re flogging a dead horse there

I’m all for multiculturalism and integration, but I really despise the idea that established laws can be conveniently ignored if you don’t like them. That’s a little scary. I wonder how far I’d get drinking communion wine in Saudi?

We have EU imposed animal cruelty laws which are waived for religious reasons.
Religion is bollocks, but you’re ignorant. Jews and Muslims in Europe predate the EU by centuries.

That’s not the same thing as being compliant with the law.

Yes, it is, if the law doesn’t require compliance. You’re not being half as smart as you think you are.

Jews and Muslims in Europe predate the EU by centuries.

I know this but I don’t think I get what point you’re making?

We aren’t exactly wholly indigenous in the UK, we’re a mongrel race of indigenous Celts, Romans, Norse, French, whoever else has come over here over the years either by force or invitation. That’s not a bad thing.

Law and culture has evolved similarly. If you don’t like those laws, you lobby for reform, you don’t seek an exclusion clause.

I guess I don’t really get why you’d choose to live somewhere which is incompatible with your world view (and yes, I know for a lot of people it’s not a choice). It’s kinda similar to when Brits go on holiday and then spend all their time in the “Rose & Crown” English themed bar eating fish and chips. I just don’t get it. When I go on holiday, I try and see the ‘real’ country and integrate as well as I can even if it’s just for a couple of weeks. I went to France and thought “fantastic, I can brush off my GSCE French” and spent two weeks asking people to talk to me in French so I could practice it.

Perhaps it’s just me that’s weird like that. The world is a diverse place, and I quite like that.