Politics & the EU - Should Britain leave or stay? And why?

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Politics & the EU - Should Britain leave or stay? And why?

51 posts & 23 voices | Started 3 years ago by jontawn | Latest reply from G

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jontawn - Member

People of STW,

I know someone who is a UKIP person (councillor), and they're always banging on about the EU, the costs associated and that we (Britain) should leave the EU.

Now, I know very little about this subject, and I wondered if anyone could point me in the direction of some not-so-right-wing reading/info as to the benefits, or lack of our involvement with the EU

Exciting times on a saturday huh?

I just feel the info' i'm being told (NHS, Muslims, Border control and other nonsense) is all a bit 'right wing' and doesn't really fit in with my views, so wondered if the supposed predominantly liberal outlook, people of STW had any thoughts/comments?

Yes, I *AM* rock and roll (posting this on a saturday)

jt

Posted 3 years ago #
chewkw - Member

I am not right or left but my opinion is EU is just a big club for pen pushers.

Better leave than stay.

Posted 3 years ago #
tinribz - Member

Wade through the self deceptive justifying BS and at best this is just a backward thinking selfish isolationist mindset and worst the last socially acceptable outlet for subconscious racist / xenophobic fears.

Liberal enough for you?

http://europa.eu/abc/euslides/index_en.htm

Posted 3 years ago #
jontawn - Member

Aye, that is fairly liberal!!

But what are your thoughts? or are those thoughts yours?

Posted 3 years ago #
grizzlygus - Member

I wondered if anyone could point me in the direction of some not-so-right-wing reading/info as to the benefits, or lack of our involvement with the EU

Very left-wing, and very anti-EU :

no2eu

Posted 3 years ago #
tinribz - Member

Yes they are my thoughts based on conversations with people against it.

Seems obvious to me that a European state is a natural political progression and its aims to equalise and raise standards of living across the continent morally supplier to any silo'ed approach.

There's often short term gains to be had being the odd one out and starting as one of the richer states / net contributors will have to mean some winners and losers early on. But this focus on imaginary boundaries and traditions just seems bizzare, people are people and culture is a shallow façade.

Posted 3 years ago #
epicyclo - Member

The EU is great in theory, but eventually it will degenerate into a bureaucratic empire and we will be the minions.

Posted 3 years ago #
samuri - Member

I like the idea of a perfect single european union. It'll never work though sadly because of power hungry ministers and back stabbing politicans.

Posted 3 years ago #
konabunny - Member

"Seems obvious to me that a European state is a natural political progression and its aims to equalise and raise standards of living across the continent morally supplier to any silo'ed approach. "

The other way of looking at it is that the further you remove government from the people, the less democratic it becomes. Why don't we have the US approach where it's the other way around: all power should be as local as possible, unless there's a bloody good reason to escalate it.

Posted 3 years ago #
konabunny - Member

How does this Councillor link "Muslims" to the EU, by the way?

Posted 3 years ago #
vinnyeh - Member

What does the EU mean for British industry and trade- would leaving the EU disadvantage Britain in one of it's biggest markets? The risk of that has always seemed to me to be the main reason for staying in.
I remmeber the horror in NZ in the 70's when Britain joined what was to become the EU and almost overnight our main export market for primary produce just about closed to us.

Posted 3 years ago #
daveob - Member

Until we convert to the Euro we will never really see the benefits of being in the EU IMO. Its like joining a fancy golf club and then never playing. Costs a fortune, sounds good, but with no real benefits.

Posted 3 years ago #
konabunny - Member

"What does the EU mean for British industry and trade- would leaving the EU disadvantage Britain in one of it's biggest markets? The risk of that has always seemed to me to be the main reason for staying in."

I would assume that most people advocating the UK leaving the EU would still want the UK in EFTA, like Switzerland and Norway (is that right?) - so basically all the trade aspects would remain but the social/political ones would be dumped.

Posted 3 years ago #
mAx_hEadSet - Member

Wales , Scotland and Northern Ireland have probably picked up eu funding that would not have been invested by the English Parliament.. not a good reason for those living in England though. Given the bullish nature of our poxy governments of late, all those self opinionated anti euro nuts would only likely fuel a worse government and access to the Europan Court of Human Rights has been the saving of many a downtrodden uk citizen against the oppressive might of parliament, and any one argue that such external interference is unwarranted the uk government seems well able to avoid it if necessary as with the DNA database.

We get good access to loads of lovely cheap labour from eastern europe, and once we get the euro you will see the real scam is the way uk economy is the amount of overcharging that our SME's have been allowed to hoist on us.. go and look at the car price differential scandal that open eu trading exposed years ago.

I would think leaving the EU would leave us a small island reliant on the good will and economic benevolence of two large entities to our east and west just like Iceland is. We have no merchant fleet any more and our prices will fluctuate more being driven by world markets than the stability the eu has given.

The best things to change are to reduce the pen pushing not to walk out.

Posted 3 years ago #
konabunny - Member

access to the Europan Court of Human Rights has been the saving of many a downtrodden uk citizen

Much as I love the ECHR, it's actually part of the Council of Europe, not the European Union, and you don't have to be in the EU to be in the C of E. The Human Rights Act incorporated the European Convention on Human Rights into the various UK laws.

Posted 3 years ago #
mudshark - Member

We've still got Thatcher's rebate I think? If we lost that I'd want the figures looked at more closely as would wonder if it's really worth it. Seems to me that it mostly helps the poorer nations who've joined at a cost to us but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Posted 3 years ago #
epicyclo - Member

I think the best defence against oppressive government is as has already been said here - devolve political power to the local level as much as possible.

As a Scot I can't wait for full devolution, but it won't just benefit Scotland, it will benefit England because their country will then have a parliament that attends to their interests only. Plus they won't have the obscenity of Scots MPs voting in a bloc (Labour Whip) on purely English matters.

Posted 3 years ago #
chewkw - Member

Imagine working and living in a large bureaucratic organisation and when you ask a question the reply will always be ... "the computer say noooo...." or it's not my decision it comes from the "top" but who are those at the top? Nobody knows.

In theory it might be good but why in a hurry to join? It is not as if we will starve just because we are not in EU.

Posted 3 years ago #
mogrim - Member

It is not as if we will starve just because we are not in EU.

Well, I might - at the end of the day the only reason I can live and work without going through green-card style visa applications in Spain is thanks to the EU.

How about looking at it from the other point of view - how much does the EU cost, and why wouldn't you want to be part of it?

Posted 3 years ago #
samuri - Member

Looking through the internet, the cost for a Uk person of being in the Uk varies from 68 quid to 200 quid per annum.

Massively bigger picture outlook though, just an idea....

Why should there be geographical groupings, or continental unions, or even countries? It just comes down to business at the end of the day but if people were to look at the benefit of the human race, then a complete unified global economy is the way forwards. Obviously it'll never happen but as a concept that to me sounds the thing to try, and a european union is the place to start. After that an asian integration, slav acceptance and then african inclusion. Then all you need to do is get America on board and we're all doing everything together.

Posted 3 years ago #
chewkw - Member

Well, I might - at the end of the day the only reason I can live and work without going through green-card style visa applications in Spain is thanks to the EU.

The present system is good enough to enable everyone to mover around in EU so I do not see any reason to progress to full EU membership.

How about looking at it from the other point of view - how much does the EU cost, and why wouldn't you want to be part of it?

Cost is not a concern but bureaucracy is. Large is not always beautiful.

Posted 3 years ago #
JxL - Member

Having been brought up in Lithuania, joining the EU was pretty much a revolution in terms of being protected against another Russian invasion (which was on up till 1990's).

Now however having lived in England for around 8 years and recently taking a bigger interest in politics it seems little sense for Britain, being a superpower, staying in the EU. Instead of legislations being made locally, or at least nationally, around 80% of them are decided in Brussels by some bureaucrats??

I tend to have more leftist views, yet now leaning more towards conservatives, especially intrigued by Daniel Hannan and his political views, which at least to me mostly make sense.

Posted 3 years ago #
grizzlygus - Member

especially intrigued by Daniel Hannan and his political views, which at least to me mostly make sense.

You support scrapping the National Health Service then ?

Because according to Daniel Hannan the NHS is a 60 year mistake which makes people 'iller' ! ! !

Yep, according to moronic right-wing fcukwit, the NHS actually make people MORE ILL !

Here is a video you might not have seen, in which he denounces the British NHS and urges the Americans to keep their existing health provisions.

Britain's Dan Hannan: Nationalized healthcare has made us iller

BTW, it is generally accepted that US health care is the most inefficient and worst money for value of any in the world. Also millions of US citizens have no health cover at all.

Personally I think the Tories should have the good sense to throw Daniel Hannan out of their party - he clearly belongs in some loony extreme right-wing neo-conservative/fascist party.

Posted 3 years ago #
JxL - Member

Nope, just because I am intrigued by Daniel Hannan it does not mean I support ALL of his policies, although most do make sense. I do not agree with his views about NHS though.

I think it is his character and passion that strikes me, having the balls to stand up for himself in front of everybody. He does have a good point about the Lisbon Treaty, and appears to encourage democracy rather than power-grabbing-EU-president.

I would disagree him being "extreme right wing", since in this case he should be boasting racial abuse, encouraging teaching abstinence in schools, condemning homosexuals and anybody different and using <bits> of the bible to give reason to such nonsense (what seems to be the case with American Republicans).

Posted 3 years ago #
grizzlygus - Member

just because I am intrigued by Daniel Hannan it does not mean I support ALL of his policies ..........appears to encourage democracy

I think that his opposition to the NHS goes to the very heart of his fundamental political beliefs. So I'm not sure how you can simply dismiss it as just one policy which you don't agree with.

And I'm not sure how strong his commitment to 'democracy' is. He was elected to represent the people of South East England, opinion polls after opinion polls show consistently, that the NHS is one of the most, if not the most, respected institution in British society. Opposing and denouncing the NHS is clearly not representing the views of your electorate.

Posted 3 years ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

Pro EU here - very strongly so. Pro euro as well. If we had joined the Euro it would have been a stronger currency than it is and we would have been much better placed in the credit crunch.

As for the EU - together we are stronger. what I would like to see is a much stronger EU controlling macro economic policy and defense with most other stuff devolved down to smaller political entities so national governments lose their function.

We are certainly richer as a result of being in the EU and have better legal protection

Posted 3 years ago #
Zulu-Eleven - Member

Gus, if you want to critisise Hannan's take on the NHS, and other issues, then I would suggest you go and read "the plan" and his alternatives, what they based on, and why he feels it would work - rather than just trying to dismiss them out of hand.

Personally, I think the Singapore method he puts forward seems a substantial improvement, however I do have some reservations on whether it sways people from early medical intervention, but would like to see the data.

I also have to say his ideas of local sales tax replacing VAT, dissemination of powers to a local level and electoral involvement in the direction of policing are thoroughly good ideas.

Posted 3 years ago #
grizzlygus - Member

"We are certainly richer as a result of being in the EU"

Yeah right .... and joining the Common Market created all those jobs, didn't it ?

So how come unemployment levels have never come down to what they were before we joined then ?

"and have better legal protection"

What are you saying - that we can't pass our own laws ? How did we manage before ?

Posted 3 years ago #
grizzlygus - Member

Ratty - you honestly expect me to read something by Daniel Hannan ?

I saw the interview he gave in which he told the US that the British NHS was making people "iller". That was enough for me thank you.

BTW, denouncing the British prime minister before an international audience, then denouncing a much loved British institution before an American audience ....... I see a pattern emerging here.

Posted 3 years ago #
Zulu-Eleven - Member

No Gus,

I don't expect you to read the document (The Plan: twelve months to renew Britain) you're trying to criticise

I would expect you to snipe and jump to conclusions based on ignorance of what he's actually saying, whilst all the time defending the crumbling status quo.

As Hannan says in the book - the first step in improving healthcare in our country is realising and admitting that the NHS has significant failings - the comment about "making people iller" refers to the fact that the NHS is formatted to treat things rather then prevent them. A fair point!

Woe betide that we should allow anyone to look for alternatives or solutions that do not serve to prop up a statist, interventionist political elite - no, we'll close down debate by shouting "he wants to get rid of the NHS"

Posted 3 years ago #
Northwind - Member

I'm generally pro-european and pro union, but I find it pretty hard to be a big supporter of the current EU. Still, I don't believe that isolating ourselves is the way to go either. The fact is we're a small player in a big game.

Posted 3 years ago #
bigrich - Member

joining the euro = cheaper alps holidays.

Posted 3 years ago #
konabunny - Member

"it seems little sense for Britain, being a superpower..."

The UK is not a Superpower (and perhaps the era of Superpowers is over).

"Instead of legislations being made locally, or at least nationally, around 80% of them are decided in Brussels by some bureaucrats??"

That's possibly true by sheer numbers - but it may be that 90% of that is incredibly tedious regulatory stuff, like standard size for fire exit signs (or something). Most likely most law in the UK is made by regulatory bodies rather than Parliament too.

In other words, the statistic alone doesn't worry me, but the underlying issue might.

Posted 3 years ago #
juan - Member

Instead of legislations being made locally, or at least nationally, around 80% of them are decided in Brussels by some bureaucrats

Yes by people you chose to vote (or not) for.

Eu allows me to go and visit my friend/family in spain, UK without the need of a passeport. Go and ride my bike 50 kms from home without the need for a complete check of me my car and my bike.

Countries such as spain/portugal have seen a massive increase of health standard thanks to EU.

I think the economic crisis would have been less important if UK had the euro currency.

One of the think I have failed to understand during my 4 years in UK is why brits seems to be so close to the US and not to the country that are around the corner...

EDIT actually in my last sentence, read english rather than brits...

Posted 3 years ago #
JxL - Member

A bit off topic, but this morning on the way to university on M55 I saw one of those small planes and a message "stop the EU rip off" or so (it was going the other way, so hard to read backwards while on motorway).

Anybody else seen it?

Posted 3 years ago #

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